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predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
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Topic: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber (Read 24102 times)
Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
on:
March 25, 2009, 00:12:38 am »
We know the 48IDA was found on various racing Ford V8 applications, along with later 4-cylinder powered Porsche 4 cam race cars, i.e. 904, Carrera-Abarth etc...
But wonder where the IDM originated?
I believe it was the Maserati V8 used in the 450S race car, beginning in 1956, and later, the very limited production 5000GT street car, which used the same V8 as the race car, including the gear driven cams (at first) and the untamed IDM carbs, through 1960.
Here's a drawing of the V8 equpiied with IDM's. In 1960 the engine was "civilized" with Lucas injection.
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Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #1 on:
March 25, 2009, 19:42:39 pm »
see if I can upload a few more pics of this V8 fed by the quartet of Webers...
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Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #2 on:
March 25, 2009, 19:49:44 pm »
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Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #3 on:
March 25, 2009, 19:58:26 pm »
3.5 liter Lamborghini V12 prototype, fed by 6 IDM Webers (w/ peak power of 360hp @ 9000) this is first version of the engine before it was de-tuned by Dallara for street use in first production cars (it was changed to 6 side draft Webers)
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speedwell
Hero Member
Posts: 14713
the archivist
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #4 on:
March 25, 2009, 20:57:17 pm »
is the 45 idm are the same as 46 ida
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http://speedwell55.skynetblogs.be/
oldspeed 61 standard empi/speedwell
Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #5 on:
March 25, 2009, 21:00:50 pm »
Quote from: speedwell on March 25, 2009, 20:57:17 pm
is the 45 idm are the same as 46 ida
hi fabs... no... IDM was a sand cast carburetor, and the details on body and top of carb are much different between IDM and IDA... I'd say the IDA is a descendent of the IDM.
Now what about the 58mm IDM? What was it found on?
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Dustin
Full Member
Posts: 190
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #6 on:
March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am »
Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood
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Der Kleiner Panzers III
www.dkpcarclub.com
'69 Tangerine Orange Karmann Ghia- In progress
'66 Marina blue Chevy II Nova Hardtop- Project mothballed
alex d
Hero Member
Posts: 1035
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #7 on:
March 02, 2016, 17:43:03 pm »
You can see and hear those 45 IDMs here
https://youtu.be/RzvdYJXQh7Q
What an awesome car!!
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Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #8 on:
October 21, 2016, 19:37:35 pm »
Quote from: Dustin on March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am
Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood
I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Logged
Nico86
Hero Member
Posts: 6354
Turnip engine.
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #9 on:
October 22, 2016, 13:22:32 pm »
Here's the 450S that was sold a few years ago :
http://www.carscoops.com/2014/04/maserati-450s-driven-by-stirling-moss.html
«
Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 13:24:17 pm by Nico86
»
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Nico86
Hero Member
Posts: 6354
Turnip engine.
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #10 on:
October 22, 2016, 13:29:48 pm »
A few period picture. On the second one, driven by Fangio at the 12h of Sebring 1957.
«
Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 13:40:23 pm by Nico86
»
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Nico86
Hero Member
Posts: 6354
Turnip engine.
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #11 on:
October 22, 2016, 13:32:04 pm »
That's an ad for the Maserati motorboat engines, so I'm not sure the engine specs are exactly the same as when the engine was in the 450S.
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kafercup
Sr. Member
Posts: 309
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #12 on:
October 25, 2016, 22:17:36 pm »
Quote from: Jim Ratto on October 21, 2016, 19:37:35 pm
Quote from: Dustin on March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am
Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood
I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made.
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alex d
Hero Member
Posts: 1035
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #13 on:
December 20, 2016, 14:44:32 pm »
a set* of 3 48 IDMs
http://www.ebay.es/itm/122197914308?rmvSB=true
very affordable at $19,000 buy it now
*probably one carb missing? don't know of any 6 cylinder using them
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alex d
Hero Member
Posts: 1035
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #14 on:
December 20, 2016, 14:46:11 pm »
also found this cool identification guide for early IDAs here
http://saacforum.com/index.php?topic=34908.0
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Fastbrit
Hero Member
Posts: 4731
Keep smiling...
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #15 on:
December 20, 2016, 16:25:57 pm »
Fascinating _ I wonder what the reasoning was behind the 'bowl wall rib'? Clearly a decision made to add strength, but not the most obvious failure point.
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Der Kleiner Panzers VW Club
12.56sec street-driven Cal Looker in 1995
9.87sec No Mercy race car in 1994
Seems like a lifetime ago...
Taylor
Hero Member
Posts: 577
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #16 on:
December 22, 2016, 21:38:40 pm »
I have a set of early, screw in brass squirter, no ear 48s but they have the rib on them. If I'm not mistaken, the only set I've seen that were early, no ear, carbs that didn't have the rib are on Jason Foster's DKP III car. The only set I have noticed anyway.
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Bill Schwimmer
DKK
Hero Member
Posts: 562
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #17 on:
December 23, 2016, 00:51:52 am »
There was a guy who worked @ FAT in the early 90's who had a set of IDM's on his bug. I am sure he would have rather had a pr. of IDA's. I think they were sold off, probably for less than market value of IDA's.
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" don't buy upgrades ride up grades"
Eddy Merckx
alex d
Hero Member
Posts: 1035
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #18 on:
October 17, 2018, 09:18:25 am »
Someone please grab this IDA1s and put them to good use
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2219566
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andrewlandon67
Hero Member
Posts: 517
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #19 on:
October 17, 2018, 18:27:38 pm »
Quote from: alex d on October 17, 2018, 09:18:25 am
Someone please grab this IDA1s and put them to good use
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2219566
Anyone wanna loan me some cash?
Logged
14.877 @ 88.85 mph
My car is what it is, maybe not Cal Look per the books, but it's more than most.
"Walking Softly and Carrying a Big Fucking Stick" - Zach G.
Neil Davies
Hero Member
Posts: 3438
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #20 on:
October 17, 2018, 21:40:53 pm »
I sold my Italian IDAs for the same reason - childcare is expensive! When the boy is a bit bigger he can spend his pocket money on a replacement set...
Logged
2007cc, 48IDFs, street car. 14.45@93 on pump fuel, treads, muffler and fanbelt. October 2017!
Bruce
Hero Member
Posts: 1420
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #21 on:
December 17, 2018, 11:36:30 am »
Quote from: kafercup on October 25, 2016, 22:17:36 pm
Quote from: Jim Ratto on October 21, 2016, 19:37:35 pm
Quote from: Dustin on March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am
Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood
I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made.
Hey those are my photos!
The story I heard was that Ford had Weber 58 DSFs on their big blocks and were kicking Chevy's ass in Can-Am racing, so Chevrolet phoned up Weber to buy some carbs. Weber declined to sell them to Chevrolet because they had an OEM agreement with Ford. Chevrolet somehow did a full-on patent violation and copied the Webers in order to compete. Shortly after, the racing classes went to FI, and all the carbs were shelved.
Then 10-20 years later, the guys at Chevrolet were cleaning up the workshop when the carbs were found. An old timer remembered how they copied the Webers. Fearing legal action, he ordered that the carbs be destroyed. The guy that was tasked with this, just couldn't destroy such art, so he absconded home with them. He saved them for another 20 years before Augie came along.
Logged
andrewlandon67
Hero Member
Posts: 517
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #22 on:
December 17, 2018, 17:13:20 pm »
Quote from: Bruce on December 17, 2018, 11:36:30 am
Quote from: kafercup on October 25, 2016, 22:17:36 pm
Quote from: Jim Ratto on October 21, 2016, 19:37:35 pm
Quote from: Dustin on March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am
Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood
I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made.
Hey those are my photos!
The story I heard was that Ford had Weber 58 DSFs on their big blocks and were kicking Chevy's ass in Can-Am racing, so Chevrolet phoned up Weber to buy some carbs. Weber declined to sell them to Chevrolet because they had an OEM agreement with Ford. Chevrolet somehow did a full-on patent violation and copied the Webers in order to compete. Shortly after, the racing classes went to FI, and all the carbs were shelved.
Then 10-20 years later, the guys at Chevrolet were cleaning up the workshop when the carbs were found. An old timer remembered how they copied the Webers. Fearing legal action, he ordered that the carbs be destroyed. The guy that was tasked with this, just couldn't destroy such art, so he absconded home with them. He saved them for another 20 years before Augie came along.
Oh man, that's an awesome story! I think it's fascinating how certain parts like these carbs can bounce their way around the car scene, and how people can remember specific carburetors from their distant past. Thanks for posting that!
Logged
14.877 @ 88.85 mph
My car is what it is, maybe not Cal Look per the books, but it's more than most.
"Walking Softly and Carrying a Big Fucking Stick" - Zach G.
alex d
Hero Member
Posts: 1035
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #23 on:
January 09, 2020, 12:18:07 pm »
Quote from: Jim Ratto on March 25, 2009, 19:58:26 pm
3.5 liter Lamborghini V12 prototype, fed by 6 IDM Webers (w/ peak power of 360hp @ 9000) this is first version of the engine before it was de-tuned by Dallara for street use in first production cars (it was changed to 6 side draft Webers)
another take of the same moment here
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-introduction-of-the-new-lamborghini-350gtv-at-the-lamborghini-picture-id79853308?s=2048x2048
you can really see the IDMs in all their glory, imagine the sound of the V12 with those carbs and straight exhausts!
Logged
Jim Ratto
Hero Member
Posts: 7121
Re: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber
«
Reply #24 on:
February 29, 2020, 01:24:33 am »
Quote from: Bruce on December 17, 2018, 11:36:30 am
Quote from: kafercup on October 25, 2016, 22:17:36 pm
Quote from: Jim Ratto on October 21, 2016, 19:37:35 pm
Quote from: Dustin on March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am
Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood
I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made.
Hey those are my photos!
The story I heard was that Ford had Weber 58 DSFs on their big blocks and were kicking Chevy's ass in Can-Am racing, so Chevrolet phoned up Weber to buy some carbs. Weber declined to sell them to Chevrolet because they had an OEM agreement with Ford. Chevrolet somehow did a full-on patent violation and copied the Webers in order to compete. Shortly after, the racing classes went to FI, and all the carbs were shelved.
Then 10-20 years later, the guys at Chevrolet were cleaning up the workshop when the carbs were found. An old timer remembered how they copied the Webers. Fearing legal action, he ordered that the carbs be destroyed. The guy that was tasked with this, just couldn't destroy such art, so he absconded home with them. He saved them for another 20 years before Augie came along.
The 58mm downdrafts were used on Ford's 1963 pushrod 255 CI Indy motor, the predecessor to the infamous 4-cam Indy-Ford that had exhausts routed from V of engine. The 4-cam had mechanical injection.
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