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Author Topic: predecessor to the 48IDA: the 45IDM Weber  (Read 9771 times)
Jim Ratto
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« on: March 25, 2009, 00:12:38 am »

We know the 48IDA was found on various racing Ford V8 applications, along with later 4-cylinder powered Porsche 4 cam race cars, i.e. 904, Carrera-Abarth etc...

But wonder where the IDM originated?

I believe it was the Maserati V8 used in the 450S race car, beginning in 1956, and later, the very limited production 5000GT street car, which used the same V8 as the race car, including the gear driven cams (at first) and the untamed IDM carbs, through 1960.

Here's a drawing of the V8 equpiied with IDM's. In 1960 the engine was "civilized" with Lucas injection.




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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 19:42:39 pm »

see if I can upload a few more pics of this V8 fed by the quartet of Webers...
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 19:49:44 pm »

 Cool
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 19:58:26 pm »

3.5 liter Lamborghini V12 prototype, fed by 6 IDM Webers (w/ peak power of 360hp @ 9000) this is first version of the engine before it was de-tuned by Dallara for street use in first production cars (it was changed to 6 side draft Webers)

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speedwell
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 20:57:17 pm »

is the 45 idm are the same as 46 ida Huh
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 21:00:50 pm »

is the 45 idm are the same as 46 ida Huh

hi fabs... no... IDM was a sand cast carburetor, and the details on body and top of carb are much different between IDM and IDA... I'd say the IDA is a descendent of the IDM.

Now what about the 58mm IDM? What was it found on?
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 06:09:11 am »

Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood  Grin
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alex d
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2016, 17:43:03 pm »

You can see and hear those 45 IDMs here  Grin
https://youtu.be/RzvdYJXQh7Q

What an awesome car!!
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2016, 19:37:35 pm »

Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood  Grin

I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
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Nico86
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2016, 13:22:32 pm »

Here's the 450S that was sold a few years ago : http://www.carscoops.com/2014/04/maserati-450s-driven-by-stirling-moss.html



« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 13:24:17 pm by Nico86 » Logged

Nico86
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2016, 13:29:48 pm »

A few period picture. On the second one, driven by Fangio at the 12h of Sebring 1957.



« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 13:40:23 pm by Nico86 » Logged

Nico86
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Turnip engine.


« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2016, 13:32:04 pm »

That's an ad for the Maserati motorboat engines, so I'm not sure the engine specs are exactly the same as when the engine was in the 450S.

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kafercup
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2016, 22:17:36 pm »

Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood  Grin

I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.


Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made. 
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alex d
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 14:44:32 pm »

a set* of 3 48 IDMs


http://www.ebay.es/itm/122197914308?rmvSB=true

very affordable at $19,000 buy it now  Shocked

*probably one carb missing? don't know of any 6 cylinder using them
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alex d
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2016, 14:46:11 pm »

also found this cool identification guide for early IDAs here

http://saacforum.com/index.php?topic=34908.0


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Fastbrit
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2016, 16:25:57 pm »

Fascinating _ I wonder what the reasoning was behind the 'bowl wall rib'? Clearly a decision made to add strength, but not the most obvious failure point.
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Taylor
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 21:38:40 pm »

I have a set of early, screw in brass squirter, no ear 48s but they have the rib on them.   If I'm not mistaken, the only set I've seen that were early, no ear, carbs that didn't have the rib are on Jason Foster's DKP III car.  The only set I have noticed anyway.
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Bill Schwimmer
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2016, 00:51:52 am »

There was a guy who worked @ FAT in the early 90's who had a set of IDM's on his bug. I am sure he would have rather had a pr. of IDA's. I think they were sold off, probably for less than market value of IDA's.
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alex d
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2018, 09:18:25 am »

Someone please grab this IDA1s and put them to good use  Smiley

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2219566
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andrewlandon67
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2018, 18:27:38 pm »

Someone please grab this IDA1s and put them to good use  Smiley

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2219566


Anyone wanna loan me some cash?  Wink
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14.877 @ 88.85 mph

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Neil Davies
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2018, 21:40:53 pm »

I sold my Italian IDAs for the same reason - childcare is expensive! When the boy is a bit bigger he can spend his pocket money on a replacement set...
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Bruce
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2018, 11:36:30 am »

Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood  Grin

I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made. 
Hey those are my photos!
The story I heard was that Ford had Weber 58 DSFs on their big blocks and were kicking Chevy's ass in Can-Am racing, so Chevrolet phoned up Weber to buy some carbs.  Weber declined to sell them to Chevrolet because they had an OEM agreement with Ford.  Chevrolet somehow did a full-on patent violation and copied the Webers in order to compete.  Shortly after, the racing classes went to FI, and all the carbs were shelved.
Then 10-20 years later, the guys at Chevrolet were cleaning up the workshop when the carbs were found. An old timer remembered how they copied the Webers. Fearing legal action, he ordered that the carbs be destroyed.  The guy that was tasked with this, just couldn't destroy such art, so he absconded home with them.  He saved them for another 20 years before Augie came along.
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andrewlandon67
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2018, 17:13:20 pm »

Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood  Grin

I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made. 
Hey those are my photos!
The story I heard was that Ford had Weber 58 DSFs on their big blocks and were kicking Chevy's ass in Can-Am racing, so Chevrolet phoned up Weber to buy some carbs.  Weber declined to sell them to Chevrolet because they had an OEM agreement with Ford.  Chevrolet somehow did a full-on patent violation and copied the Webers in order to compete.  Shortly after, the racing classes went to FI, and all the carbs were shelved.
Then 10-20 years later, the guys at Chevrolet were cleaning up the workshop when the carbs were found. An old timer remembered how they copied the Webers. Fearing legal action, he ordered that the carbs be destroyed.  The guy that was tasked with this, just couldn't destroy such art, so he absconded home with them.  He saved them for another 20 years before Augie came along.

Oh man, that's an awesome story! I think it's fascinating how certain parts like these carbs can bounce their way around the car scene, and how people can remember specific carburetors from their distant past. Thanks for posting that!
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14.877 @ 88.85 mph

Dreaming of IDAs, planning on paint someday. "Walking Softly and Carrying a Big Fucking Stick" - Zach G.
alex d
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2020, 12:18:07 pm »

3.5 liter Lamborghini V12 prototype, fed by 6 IDM Webers (w/ peak power of 360hp @ 9000) this is first version of the engine before it was de-tuned by Dallara for street use in first production cars (it was changed to 6 side draft Webers)



another take of the same moment here
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-introduction-of-the-new-lamborghini-350gtv-at-the-lamborghini-picture-id79853308?s=2048x2048

you can really see the IDMs in all their glory, imagine the sound of the V12 with those carbs and straight exhausts!
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2020, 01:24:33 am »

Schwimmer's buddy, Auggie could probably tell you way more than you care to know about those early carbs. He was showing us several, very rare ones that Weber made just for certain racing teams back in the day. Most of them were in sets of 4 and he had V8 manifolds for them too!! Very cool stuff! I had to keep wiping the drool from my lip as I fondled them!! I kept picturing 8 velocity stacks rising out of my '66 Nova hood  Grin

I finally met the guy @ Galassi's party a month or so back. Bill introduced us. Very nice guy and knowledgeable about this kind of thing. He was telling me about special 58mm carbs, cast in magnesium, specially made for Chevy and Ford for their motors that ran at Sebring, Le Mans, etc. Interesting jetting, emulsion tubes and tricks used.
Here's the Weber 58dsf's, supposedly only four sets were made. 
Hey those are my photos!
The story I heard was that Ford had Weber 58 DSFs on their big blocks and were kicking Chevy's ass in Can-Am racing, so Chevrolet phoned up Weber to buy some carbs.  Weber declined to sell them to Chevrolet because they had an OEM agreement with Ford.  Chevrolet somehow did a full-on patent violation and copied the Webers in order to compete.  Shortly after, the racing classes went to FI, and all the carbs were shelved.
Then 10-20 years later, the guys at Chevrolet were cleaning up the workshop when the carbs were found. An old timer remembered how they copied the Webers. Fearing legal action, he ordered that the carbs be destroyed.  The guy that was tasked with this, just couldn't destroy such art, so he absconded home with them.  He saved them for another 20 years before Augie came along.

The 58mm downdrafts were used on Ford's 1963 pushrod 255 CI Indy motor, the predecessor to the infamous 4-cam Indy-Ford that had exhausts routed from V of engine. The 4-cam had mechanical injection.
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