fk8x vs fk4x

[Peter]

hi guys,
whats your experience with these cams?
i would like to know the differences from a driving point of view

thanks, peter

[Roman]

The FK-4 series usually has faster ramps than the FK-8 series. Don't go over 1.4 rocker ratio and use good valve springs and you will have good wide powerband cam.

[SOB/RFH]

Why no more than 1.4's Roman......Just build a big huge motor with a lot of impulse from the short rods to keep the revs down as it kills everything in no time at all and just enjoy the really high lifts and torque that it provides!!! 

[SOB/RFH]

I made a blunder!!! Sorry for posting on "the race topic".....I thought about real stret engines and not the high winding non longivity race stuff!!

[Roman]

 
Actually the the FK-46 I used was a tip from you SOB. Thx!
It pulled from 2000 to 7000 in my 2332 but sadly my trans broke before I made any tests on the strip with that combo.

I will have a lot of lift in my new engine, the aim is over 17 mm. My old engine had 16.4 mm lift.
We build our engines different, you with short rods, mild duration and low rpm. You build your engines the more traditional way and I like to test new stuff.

PS. The new Kawasaki Ninja has 13.9 compression and max power at 14 000 rpm. Try this mantra SOB: RPM and compression is good, RPM and compression is your friend. 

[Peter]

i see that the fk 4 series have more lift and less valve time , opposed to the fk 87

6087 FK-87 .561"             FK-45 .561"                           6046 FK-46 .571"            6047 FK-47 .587"      
.561" 320°                  .561" 295°                  .571" 301°            .587" 308°      
320° .401"                  295° .401"                  301° .408"            308° .419"      
.401" 276°                  .401" 263°                  .408" 268°            .419" 276°      
276° 108° $80.00            263° 108° $80.00               268° 108° $80.00      276° 108° $80.00      
                                           
i guess then that the fk4 series supply more torque at lower rpms and the fk87 in the higher rpms ;
am i right?

cheers, peter

[SOB/RFH]

Actually the the FK-46 I used was a tip from you SOB. Thx!
It pulled from 2000 to 7000 in my 2332 but sadly my trans broke before I made any tests on the strip with that combo.

I will have a lot of lift in my new engine, the aim is over 17 mm. My old engine had 16.4 mm lift.
We build our engines different, you with short rods, mild duration and low rpm. You build your engines the more traditional way and I like to test new stuff.

PS. The new Kawasaki Ninja has 13.9 compression and max power at 14 000 rpm. Try this mantra SOB: RPM and compression is good, RPM and compression is your friend. 

Traditional....For christ sake!! I am using synthetic oil!!!!

I think that high reving, long rod, narrow power band motors were the past and that the  new way of build engines is big cc, short rod, high CR..................and synthetic oil!!! 

I think the diffrence between me and Roman is drivability........Roman optimeces on short, but fast trips and I am looking for vercaibillty. Good or bad, we have made our choices and learning from each other is the priority to get us moving forward!!! To all of you who don't know it.......Roman and I grow up pretty close and in that area being the guy with the fastest car was king way back then.............I think it made us competative!!!

[SOB/RFH]

i see that the fk 4 series have more lift and less valve time , opposed to the fk 87

6087 FK-87 .561"             FK-45 .561"                           6046 FK-46 .571"            6047 FK-47 .587"      
.561" 320°                  .561" 295°                  .571" 301°            .587" 308°      
320° .401"                  295° .401"                  301° .408"            308° .419"      
.401" 276°                  .401" 263°                  .408" 268°            .419" 276°      
276° 108° $80.00            263° 108° $80.00               268° 108° $80.00      276° 108° $80.00      
                                           
i guess then that the fk4 series supply more torque at lower rpms and the fk87 in the higher rpms ;
am i right?

cheers, peter

Yuo are right on the spot. But there are a lot of variables to concider. A ratio rocker cam wears the guides and a rampy cam (like VZ) wears the lifter bores. So by going to a low duration cam with high ratio rockers you end up with a lot of (nice) low end torque but put a lot of strain on the lifters bores and guides. So by keeping the revs down it will survive to a certain degree. A ramyp cam like the FK4X need more spring pressure too. So it is as allways a narrow margin to stay with in and still be sucessfull!!

To get you a ballpark, the diffrence between a FK87 and a FK46 is a round 800-1000 rpm and that is the keyfactor when choosing the heads!!

[Peter]

i ve got my heads allready: 44*37 cb wedgeports to go on a 2276

cheers, peter

[Roman]

Then the fk-46 will fit you like a glove! I had mine on a 2332 with stock wedgeports.

For those who wonder SOB and I are friends, we just like argueing! 
My last engine didn't have any poor driveability, it had a wide powerband. Peak torque 281.9 Nm (208 lbft) at 5400 rpm and 200 Nm at 3500 rpm. The best engine at the dyno contest a couple of months ago in California with pro engine builders (Pat Downs, Clyde Berg, Geoff Hart etc) had 189 lbft.
It had longer stroke and smaller valves than yours and still pulled to well over 8000 rpm. An engine should be like a chainsaw, not your lawn mover engines. 

This summer we have to test drive eachothers cars SOB so we can get a real opinion, not just from an outside view.

[Peter]

hi guys,
so will the fk87 still be nicer ont the guides and lifter bores even at higher rpm?
i would think if this is the case that an fk87 increases durability, but will give a soggier low end, so worse drivability, right?

[SOB/RFH]

Spot on Jim!! With a short durtion it gets easier to drive and safer (no cam comming in and brain going out at 5000 rpm)....as always: no pain, no gain! It is allways about sacrificing to win something!! Go for a Fk4X cam and have fun!!

[Peter]

hi guys,
i think i ll go for the 86 c,
aircooled.net says webcams are better then engle also so..
what kind of lifters and springs do you guys suggest? i dont know how light they have to be for not floating the valves ( i will have the jaycee chromoly pushrods )
has anybody tried the remmele 58 g lifters that come with the bronze bushings?
Is it safe to use the valves that came with the heads?

thanks guys in advance!

peter

[Peter]

nobody?

[Frank LUX]

hi guys,
i think i ll go for the 86 c,
aircooled.net says webcams are better then engle also so..
what kind of lifters and springs do you guys suggest? i dont know how light they have to be for not floating the valves ( i will have the jaycee chromoly pushrods )
has anybody tried the remmele 58 g lifters that come with the bronze bushings?
Is it safe to use the valves that came with the heads?

thanks guys in advance!

peter

That Cam is Great, these Pushrods are great but these lifters are the worst Shit, they've Destroyed my 2276cc when they let go at +/- 7500 RPM....

Buy Udo Becker Lifters!!!

Frank

[Peter]

and which ones? the regulars or the super lights?
what about the cb lifters?

many thanks allready for your good advice everybody

[Frank LUX]

and which ones? the regulars or the super lights?
what about the cb lifters?

many thanks allready for your good advice everybody

If you wanna destroy your Motor use the Remele Lifters, I had the super light onces in mine but it doesn't matter which onces you use, these lifters are not good for high RPM Motors!!!

Again, if you want good trouble free Lifters buy Udo Becker's Lifters!!!

Frank

[Jon]

The lifter has an impossible job if the springs are not set up correctly. Send the cam fabricator an email giving them the specks of your valve train (weights/sizes). They can then advise you on what kind of spring pressure you need for your application. They will give you this info in PSI, both for "mounted" and "over the nose".
To measure the pressure of a spring you need a wise a slide caliper and and a simple springtester, such as this: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=TAV%2D08001&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Most vw tuners will tell you that you don't need this, but with the inferior metal-to-metal lubricants in the oil today (during "lifter jumping" the oil film brakes and the backup safety Zink USED to save the day, but now its gone from the oil) in combination with new age "theoretic" cams, the window of Success has narrowed in to a tight slot. What springs used to get the work done (because the Zink in the oil saved them) now eats lifters/cams!

Sometimes I think the V8 boys have it easier, they get there cams WITH lifters and springs in the same box, with the details on how to set the springs. Some one have done the work for them. In the vw world you are on your own.

Some fixes these problems by buying there way out of it, ceramic lifters can take a hell of a lot of punishment and takes away the symptoms... but the lifter still jumps if it did before.

Some say "this" and "that" is bad, never by "this" or "that".... but its a well known fact over 80 percent of the engines DON'T eat there lifters or cams... and they use cams/lifters from whatever maker! And they all use new oil... but what separates these guys from the others, not easy to say but the spring pressure can be one thing, either by dumb luck or they have done it by the book.       

[Frank LUX]

The lifter has an impossible job if the springs are not set up correctly. Send the cam fabricator an email giving them the specks of your valve train (weights/sizes). They can then advise you on what kind of spring pressure you need for your application. They will give you this info in PSI, both for "mounted" and "over the nose".
To measure the pressure of a spring you need a wise a slide caliper and and a simple springtester, such as this: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=TAV%2D08001&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Most vw tuners will tell you that you don't need this, but with the inferior metal-to-metal lubricants in the oil today (during "lifter jumping" the oil film brakes and the backup safety Zink USED to save the day, but now its gone from the oil) in combination with new age "theoretic" cams, the window of Success has narrowed in to a tight slot. What springs used to get the work done (because the Zink in the oil saved them) now eats lifters/cams!

Sometimes I think the V8 boys have it easier, they get there cams WITH lifters and springs in the same box, with the details on how to set the springs. Some one have done the work for them. In the vw world you are on your own.

Some fixes these problems by buying there way out of it, ceramic lifters can take a hell of a lot of punishment and takes away the symptoms... but the lifter still jumps if it did before.

Some say "this" and "that" is bad, never by "this" or "that".... but its a well known fact over 80 percent of the engines DON'T eat there lifters or cams... and they use cams/lifters from whatever maker! And they all use new oil... but what separates these guys from the others, not easy to say but the spring pressure can be one thing, either by dumb luck or they have done it by the book.       

Hey JHU,

Would you use Lifters that look like Intake Valves...

I can sent you 2 of the survivers from my Motor over if you want...

Frank

[Jon]

Show us a pic....

No I'm going to use anything I can find.... bugpack or whatever... 

[richie]

Some fixes these problems by buying there way out of it, ceramic lifters can take a hell of a lot of punishment and takes away the symptoms... but the lifter still jumps if it did before.

      

john,the point here is also by going to a light lifter the existing springs have an easier time,lighter lifter = less spring pressure,
problem goes away?

I always bed my cams with whatever springs are in the motor,K800s in my own motor,fire it straight up with no pre lube of system,I have an oil I use for bed the cam,then bed the rings with same but fresh oil,then switch to my brand of synth,so far so good,but going to a lighter lifter if made correctly will always help,cheers richie,uk

[Frank LUX]

Here is a pic of the Udo Becker Lifters...

Frank

[n2o]

Anyone that have information about the lifters made by Udo?

- Material
- Hardness (Rockwell)
- radius

[Frank LUX]

Anyone that have information about the lifters made by Udo?

- Material
- Hardness (Rockwell)
- radius

You should contact Udo himself, he's on the Lounche aswell...

Frank

[Udo]

Hi
We found out that you can make 500 rpms more with the lightweight lifters with the same setup . If you run the FK 87 or 86C for example you can make up to 8000 rpms with 44 intake valves without valve float . No matter if the engine has power up to this rpms. On the starting line or 1. gear much engines float on the valves. The other thing is that we don't have any breakin or whoodo dance when starting the engine for the first time. You can run oil whatever you want. Fact is that all problems regarding to the cam and lifters only is the material of the lifter. This is why I make the lifters that we use for more than 20 years now with no problems . Some are over 15 years old now and still work on the engines .

Regards Udo

www.Udobeckertuning.de

[Peter]

Hello Udo,
what do you think is the best cam for the 94 gram ones,
that would work good with my heads aand pushrods?
i would like the redline at 7500; dont know if thats possible;
if not, than i ll have to choose a milder cam 
hey frank do you have a pic of your old lifters?
Peter

[Udo]

I think 7500 is max rpm before the valves float with inner and outer springs . For these rpms I would recommend the lightweight lifters to be save .

Udo

[Peter]

thank you udo,
i think i ll have to choose milder cam then   
what do you think?
sorry for all the questions...

Peter

[Jon]

john,the point here is also by going to a light lifter the existing springs have an easier time,lighter lifter = less spring pressure,
problem goes away?

Yes that's fine in theory. As most don't even know what spring pressure to aim for, guessing how much they can reduce it is a double guess.
I talked with our friend Johannes of JPM yesterday, and he says its better with to much than to little spring pressure. After many hours on the cam analyzer he knows how tough the FK46 are, and how kind the FK89 is (for the lifter).
Btw he uses whatever lifters/ cams and have never had a problem.   

[BeetleBug]

"Btw he uses whatever lifters/ cams and have never had a problem."   

Nahh, that can`t be true - "everybody" is experiencing lifter/cam issues you know