New Project! Karmann Cabrio...

[Neil Davies]

Had the new project delivered on Friday!

Bought it from Anton from Outlaw Flat Four, delivered by Joe G (towing service - 07710 789447) from Outlaw Flat Four! Not a club project, but nice to use the services of a club member or two!

It's a 1970 (I think!) Karmann Cabriolet, LHD that I think was originally sold in Portugal (I found a couple of Portugese coins inside!). It's basically complete, other than a missing sunvisor, but has the wrong rear wings and decklid (later ones), which is no real problem as I have most of the parts in stock. Tempted to use my eyebrow lid for it, should cool OK if I cut out behind the numberplate and maybe duct up from under the floor too.

Plans are to replace the rotten LHD IRS pan with a good RHD swingaxle one, drop the front with an adjustable front beam, short axles in the back, 6" and 7" Porsche cookie cutters on blank redrilled discs and drums. Bodywise it needs channels and strengtheners and a rear bootfloor (which I think I'll repair by cutting an access hole into, like in my split only bigger!) and that's about it so far. Oh, and a new hood - the window frame and rear bow on mine are shot!

Hope to be on the road fairly soon! Pics later!

[beetletom]

pics? 

[Neil Davies]

pics? 

Go on then Tom, here's one for you!
It's one of the ones that Anton took - I bought the car having only seen a handful of photos!
Took some more at the weekend and I'll get some more tonight of the "quality" repairs, like where the channels and pan seamlessly blend into one, like a monocoque...
To be honest, it's no worse than any Beetle of this age and price, but the fact that it's a Karmann Vert more than makes up for it!

[beetletom]

nice one!! 

[Neil Davies]

Had a good poke around last night and worked out what needs replacing. So far I reckon the entire floorpan, the front bulkhead, both heater channels, both rear crossmembers and the bootfloor. There are plenty of rust bubbles and areas where the filler has blown out, but I'll leave them for now - I just want to get it solid!

Had a good crawl around it and to be honest there are some really wierd bits. Bulkhead looks really solid from inside but the outside is like a tea bag.  However, the bumper mounts and body mounts are absolutely immaculate (well, at first look anyway...). The beam is rotten but the ball joints look fresh. But the worst bit on the car is the floor and channels which are welded together - when I open the drivers door, the whole windscreen frame and front end moves back! Sill strengtheners are shot I think! They've been plated using just thin sheet steel and not very well, as they cover all the floorpan bolts and lip up the underneath the running boards. I'm going to have to cut them off before I can undo the running boards!

This might take longer than I thought...

[simon uk]

looks cool, good luck with it. I did a 75 Karmann, probably 10 years ago, and it was knackered! At some point in the past someone had replaced the floor pans with some dodgy repro panels, and welded them to the sills/ strengtheners on both sides. That would be bad news on a normal bug, but very bad news on a Karmann. In the end me and my old man chopped it from the windscreen, and the c panel and lifted the front and back off separately to get under neath it and weld it up. I think it had about 40 new panels in it in the end, and was a money pit. It was quite fun when it was finished though. I think I only kept a few pictures of the build, not the finished car - it was white, had genuine 8 spokes, and a retrimmed porsche interior....

Si.

[Neil Davies]

Cheers Si, I think I'm going to go the same way as you and treat the front and back as seperate chunks! I'm hoping it won't be a completre money pit - more a rolling resto. I'd like to get it safe and stance right for this summer, then over winter do a bit more. Eventually it'll have all four quarters, door skins, wings and valances all replaced, but I'm not going to do it all in one go! Pan, channels and bulkheads first.

Got it running last night though! As far as I know it's not run for around 5 years, and the treacle-y fuel would confirm that. The fuel pump is shot (but I'll put a new one on on Saturday), but by gravity feeding fuel into the carb it eventually fired and ran! Sweet little motor too - 1600 single port I think (AH code block). It'll probably stay stock for now as my GF will be driving it, but I'd like to put twin quiet packs on! We decided to put the car in for an MOT next week so I can get a list of exactly what it needs, see if the rest of the car is ok, then just do the bodywork it needs.

[jamiep_jamiep]

Looks like a cool project Neil! And I bet the weather over the past few days has you fired up to get on it....

[Neil Davies]

Looks like a cool project Neil! And I bet the weather over the past few days has you fired up to get on it....

Just a bit! And my girlfriend constantly asking when she can drive it (pretty good for a girl who claims to hate beetles!)

Engine is running properly now - new fuel pump and a nearly new stock carb and it sits and purrs nicely! Had a little drive and found that the brakes don't work though...  Collected a load more Karmann bits, some to trade, some to keep, and on Saturday I'm collecting some more! Got a complete RHD dashboard (with chrome trim!) cut out of a Peru green '68 (only the third one I've ever seen in 14 years of Volkswagening!), so that'll go in, along with some repairs to the scuttle at the same time. When the Peru green '68 has been finally stripped, I'll go back for the heater channels, which are virtually new and hadn't been in the car long! It'll also donate the rear luggage floor, which just leaves me with the sill strengtheners and rear cross members to buy. I've decided to repair the bulkhead - on further inspection it doesn't look too bad!

I'll try to get some pics this week!

[Neil Davies]

Change of plan! They always happen!

That peru green '68 is going to be used a a bigger chunk of donor panels that I previously thought! Rather than swapping the dash, then chopping bits of the bulkhead about, then doing the channels, then build it up on the new pan, I've decided on a new plan of action - I'm not even going to use the pan I'd put aside for it. Instead I've bought the complete pan, heater channels and front end of the '68 sedan, and I'll graft on the back end, windscreen frame and front quarter strengtheners from the Karmann, then bolt up the doors and wings! The '68 had been Volks-rodded, so I need to let in a new spare wheel well - fortunately the wheel well in the Karmann has been replaced with a good genuine one, so that should help. Sounds easy when you say it quickly! Not going to touch the Karmann until the '68 pan has been painted and has the beam and gearbox in place, ready to receive the cabrio bits. Get both rolling then chop away at the Karmann, welding in bits to one as they come off the other!

Still no pictures though - it's pretty hard to take photos of phone calls...

We've been checking out colours too - the seats are black and white dogtooth cloth with black vinyl, looks like they're out of a '71 'vert according to thesamba. The hood is toast, so that'll need recovering, so we'll get another black one. All that will go nicely with the colour my better half has chosen, which is VW Tornado Red, off the New Beetle Cabriolet. Kind of keeps it in the family! 

Just need to stop spending quite so much...

[jamiep_jamiep]

Wow, sounds like a project to get your teeth into Neil!!!

[Neil Davies]

Wow, sounds like a project to get your teeth into Neil!!!

Jamie, I've always wanted a cabrio, but didn't think I'd ever be able to afford it! Sharing the cost with my girlfriend is an easier way of doing things, but I can't do everything I want, like dechroming the body! She has agreed to the cookie cutters and painted headlamp rings, she quite likes the empi eyebrow lid, and she was determined that the elephants feet would be replaced with the proper tombstones, so it's not all bad...

[nicolas]

Just a bit! And my girlfriend constantly asking when she can drive it (pretty good for a girl who claims to hate beetles!)

usually that is their way to say: stop putting money in that asap! 

have fun with it, we even might have a summer this year... 

[Neil Davies]

Just a bit! And my girlfriend constantly asking when she can drive it (pretty good for a girl who claims to hate beetles!)

usually that is their way to say: stop putting money in that asap! 

have fun with it, we even might have a summer this year... 

Well, she wanted a project we could do together! I think it may be her way of saying "how come they cost so much? Show me where the money goes!" rather than stop spending! I've got another five weeks at school then six weeks off - I should get a big chunk of it done then!

[nicolas]

Just a bit! And my girlfriend constantly asking when she can drive it (pretty good for a girl who claims to hate beetles!)

usually that is their way to say: stop putting money in that asap! 

have fun with it, we even might have a summer this year... 

Well, she wanted a project we could do together! I think it may be her way of saying "how come they cost so much? Show me where the money goes!" rather than stop spending! I've got another five weeks at school then six weeks off - I should get a big chunk of it done then!

six weeks ??








we have eight. 

[Neil Davies]

Lucky git! I could really do with six months at the moment!

Anyway, pictures - I took the padded dash off - ugly thing that it is, and found a nice clean uncut metal dash - pity it's not going to be used!

[Neil Davies]

But then comes the rotten bit! The heater channels are welded to the floor, or rather the patches that pass for a floor...

[Neil Davies]

So I got a donor section... one original 82,000 mile Peru green '68 1500 that had been volksrodded and abandoned! To be fair to Ben, the previous owner, though, he did spend a fair bit of time and money on getting it solid, before finding yet more poor repairs and just losing heart. It's scary how much had been spent by other previous owners on patches that Ben basically had to have cut out and fixed properly. It amounts to several hundred pounds for virtually every MOT! 

It's now had the doors taken off, and the back end cut down to just a pair of heater channels and crossmembers, in readiness for the back end of the vert being welded on. Before all that happens we'll repair the rest of the front end (tidy up the A-post bottoms, front flitch repairs, re-do the bulkhead patches) and get the pan painted and re-piped for the brakes and fuel. I've got my short axle gearbox and a front beam to go on so it'll be rolling soon, which means it'll be a damn sight easier to move around...
Forgot to take any photos after I'd trimmed it down though!

[jamiep_jamiep]

 

Gulp!

I'm not a million miles away Neil, if you're struggling for another pair of hands when you come to shift it let me know.

[Neil Davies]

Cheers Jamie, I may well be calling on you during the summer holidays! Got it mobile(ish!) for now though!

Last night got the pan (still with heater channels and front end!) off the table and onto a pallet that we've screwed some big castors onto, and tucked nicely into a corner of our yard. I rent a small industrial unit with a friend, but no matte how much room you've got, you always want more! Weather permitting, I'd like to get the sharp bits of the rear end trimmed off, and the rest of the donor well stripped tonight. I've also come into posession of three buckets of VW bolts! A friends brother was having a clear out so I bought some parts, including wheels studs, bearing caps, pan bolts and washers, all sorts! might have a sort out of those tonight too!

[Neil Davies]

I hate digging into cars. Found that the rear crossmembers are welded into the corner of the floorpan, so a bit more chopping is necessary. Got tomorrow evening to work on it so shouldn't take too long unless I find any more bodges...

Those bolt buckets were rather useful too - two complete sets of alloy wheel bolts in there! Result! Not to mention the gearbox cradle bolts which I needed (but no cradle unfortunately - I've had to buy one!) and lots of other useable bits!

[Neil Davies]

So, not much to report really, been grinding and hacking away at the '68 donor car to get it ready to accept the bits of '70 Karmann shell! I've got nearly seven weeks off school starting at 2pm today, so once I've got my Passat ready for MOT re-test I'll be back on the 'vert project! Ok, my g/f has two weeks off as well during that time, but still, it's going to be almost 5 weeks of 8.30 til 4pm working on it!

I need to do a little bit more trimming to free the right hand channel off the back of the pan, but otherwise that side is ground smooth and ready. I'll have to repeat the grinding on the other side channel, to get rid of the old welds holding the channel to the body, but on the plus side, I don't think it's welded to the pan there. Up front I've cut out the right hand front inner wing repair that wasn't up to standard, made up a couple of repair patches for the bulkhead and I'm getting the rest of that side ready for the new inner wing panel. Once that's done, turn round and repeat for the left hand side... Hope to get all that done by the end of week one, including painting the pan in POR-15.

Week two I'd like to spend putting the new nose section on (probably a couple of days getting it off the '70 and onto the '68) and getting the Karmann doors swapped over - trickiest bit here is going to be re-making the captive plates as most of the hinge screws had to be drilled out on the '68 and I've not managed to loosen any of the Karmann ones! The left hand door needs a bottom repair too. If there's time I'll also cut out the Karmann strengtheners from the footwells and under bonnet.

Week three should see the strengtheners all in, and the big chunk - the back end - cut off the '70 pan and mounted onto the '68. I'm not going to attempt any more than that!

Week four will concentrate on the windscreen frame and general welding, and I'd like to think that by the time I go back to school at the end of the fifth week that I'll be ready to start putting some lead and plastic fillers on it. I'd like to get it painted during October half term!

By putting my plan on here I'm hoping that it'll keep me motivated to work and stick to it! Feel free to hurl abuse if you think I'm slacking, and I'll try to get everything photographed too!

[Neil Davies]

Day one - repair panel cut out of left hand side, revealing un-expected rust in heater channel. Also found plate welded between edge of pan and underside of heater channel for no reason at all! Welds ground down on back of heater channel. Pics to follow.

Found the worst bodge ever today - to slide the new floorpan halves in, the p/o who replaced them cut the mounting points off the ends of the torsion bars! There is now no support for the rear outside edge of the pan halves! So something else that will need fixing. Back over there in a minute!

[Neil Davies]

Day two - uncovered more bodges. Some b*st*rd has decided that they knew better than VW and instead of using floorpan bolts has welded the body to the pan around the bolt holes! That's a serious kick in the plums!

Did a bit more grinding and removing old repairs - at least pidgeon shit welds are easy to snap off!

Anyway, pictures!
First is the car as a volksrod - lucky escape!
Second is the "quality" repair panel welded directly over the original inner wing.
Third is the nice modification the tit who repaired the car before did to the rear pan supports!

One day, I'll find a car no-one has messed with...

[Neil Davies]

Day three and four - got most of the passenger side front quarter and bulkhead repairs in. Needed to let in a few strips into the front edge of the heater channel as it had gone very thin and the welder was blowing holes, even on the lowest setting. Allowed access to one of the floorpan captive nuts in the bottom plate too - full of weld!

Another rant too - why can't Klokkerholm make decent panels? They're shit! I think I know the next part Wolf should make! Front flitches with the correct shape at the bottom of the hinge area, not just a cut-out!

Turning it around today to have a go at the other side, and my Dad has booked three days off work next week to try to get the nose and back end in place!!

[Rich99]

Some of those pictures are all too familiar Neil. 

Not done much on mine this week, as just have a new choc brown labrador and she is a real time-waster!

Did get the wire brush out and chip off a whole load of filler and bodged repairs, looking a right mess as you would expect.

Keep up the good work!

[Neil Davies]

Everything seems to take longer than expected!
I'm three days into week two and we've nearly got the new front end on! Turns out it wasn't as good as thought, Dad spent the whole of yesterday patching holes and replacing captive nuts. I spent a whole day drilling and re-tapping the captive plates for the door hinges, and another day repairing the right hand door post. What I did find out is that the top left hand hinge plate is the same as the bottom right, and vice versa, so I "borrowed" the top left one to put into the bottom right!

Back over to the unit in a few minutes, should get the front welded in place and then I want to start on the doors!

[Neil Davies]

Blimey, I've not been on here for a few weeks! Working hard at the unit on the car and also keeping my GF happy by spending some time with her when she has had time off! I'll be on here loads more when I'm back at school!

So, I've done a fair bit since last time I updated the thread - apologies for the length of this!

Front end is on and welded in place - bonnet (VW Mexico one) fits perfectly on the right but not so well on the left - the seal should take that up. Could be because the front clip we used had also had a valance fitted, so it could be the valance that is out rather than the clip we used! Note that we used a piece of 22mm copper plumbing pipe to line the two sections up through the indicator holes!

Bought a load of Karmann metalwork off ebay a while back, including a windscreen frame. Dad and I made a hardboard template of the screen opening, then I started to drill out the spotwelds and generally cut apart the frame. It seems that there is more Karmann-made metalwork that I thought! The whole scuttle is Karmann, as are the demister vent tubes, which double up as strengtheners, but we cut enough away to get the windscreen frame to fit, and we've made up strengtheners to fit inside the pillars, same as if we were to do a roof chop, so it should be strong enough! We've got it screwed in place until the rest of the car is sorted to make sure the angle is ok.

Also did other bits like front flitch repair and door post on the right hand side! You know what those look like though...

[Neil Davies]

Next I turned my attention to the original car, and decided to take the doors off. What a complete arse of a job! found that some of the hinge screws were stainless, so impossible to drill out, others were welded to the hinges, even found that the right hand front quarter had been welded to the bottom hinge! Eventually got the right hand door off but had to cut the hinges on the left hand one - will use the hinges from a scrap door I've got spare. While I was working on the car I had a bit of a look at the sills - decided it would be good for a laugh when I missed the impact driver and put the hammer through one... There isn't really any sill there!

Stripped the doors down then set the GF on with paint stripper-ing them - that's when we found filler, and lots of it! Had the doors dipped to remove the paint, and so glad I did! Found that the left hand door wasn't bad, just a few areas needed repairing, but the right hand door looks like its been hit at some point, hence the 12mm (yes really) of filler! Took the decision to re-skin the door - I couldn't get the the back to knock the dents out, and I'm not putting that much filler back on. I'm also fed up with door bottoms rotting out, so I had the local fabricators bend me up a length of channel to replicate the frame that the skin welds to, but out of 1.6mm sheet! Those won't rot out as quickly! Of course, I'm lead loading the repairs too!

[jamiep_jamiep]

Sounds like you're having an uphill struggle at the moment Neil! Nice work though.