Type 1 Oil Pumps (Wet Sump) Largest Size?

[Fasterbrit]

Any idea where I can get a Type 1 oil pump larger than 30 mm gears? Anyone have a single stage Autocraft pump for sale perhaps?

[Roman]

Why do you need any bigger? I have a 26 mm in my engine (2789 revving 8000+ rpm) and have no problems with the oil pressure.

[m.m.p]

Matts engine has lots of oil squirters, oil to the turbo ,cam squirters ,piston squitrers, lube a lobe lifters, there is no problem with oil presure when you rev it, its when the oil is hot and at 800rpm the oil light flickers on and off, i was thinking of modifing a cb 4 gear scavange pump to pump strait in and out, also the wbx has -10 oil gallaries.

[Fasterbrit]

Hey Marco! Do you reckon we could modify the CB pump? I looked online, but the pictures of the pump don't really give an idea of what the pump looks like side on. You are correct about the water tube needing modding and also may have to run a smaller bottom pulley!

[Roman]

OK, I have no clue about those hair drier engines and how much oil they use!
I suppose you have increased the spring pressure for the oil pressure contol already? Otherwise you can take a used rear oil contol spring and shorten it until you get the desired pressure.

[Martin]

Matts engine has lots of oil squirters, oil to the turbo ,cam squirters ,piston squitrers, lube a lobe lifters, there is no problem with oil presure when you rev it, its when the oil is hot and at 800rpm the oil light flickers on and off, i was thinking of modifing a cb 4 gear scavange pump to pump strait in and out, also the wbx has -10 oil gallaries.

There are some piston squirters im planning on using next freshen up, there golf deisel (spits in a bucket) they shut off at low rpm.
they might help


Keeno, i think the Autocraft gear pumps are only 30mm, I may be wrong. but im sure thats what mine were.


you could just make it tick over at 1000 rpm, thats what i do with mine. My oil preshure drops to 60 psi at 800 RPM when the oil is hot

[dangerous]

Revmaster make one that is 38mm I think.
Still seems unusual that you need a pump so big though.

Check the relief valve and your oil clearances.

[m.m.p]

i could mod the cb one, but the revmaster 38mm is the one i couldent remember,it would fit without changing the pully but you will have to make the water pipe fit the front, now how to get one to the uk???

[RMS Boxer Service]

I have a 32 mm laying round in the workshop somewhere. Can't remember what brand it is. I bought it in 1986
when I was young and thought that bigger is allwas better...


/Rolf

[Fasterbrit]

Right, I will see if I can get a Revmaster one then Cheers Marco

[richie]

This is only my opinion

A bigger pump will make no difference at all,if the 30mm pump cant supply enough volume to put the oil light out at idle there is something else wrong,maybe the tolerences in the pump? clearance to the pump cover?the pressure relief valve to case clearance?[easy to check and change,genuine relief valves are usually alot bigger than aftermarket and will tighten up the clearance in there. As far as I can remember and from what you are saying the only difference between Matts motor and mine are the squirters and even at 220f oil temp I have 35psi oil pressure at idle with a 30mm regular shadeck pump wiht the clearances tightened up and I am using a aftermarket case with much poorer tolerances than the factory case you are using.

 
Also the bigger pump will kill that motor at high RPM,it has a relatively small sump/oil capacity[stock waterboxer?] and it will run it dry at higher RPM.You would need to go to a stage 1 1/2 pump and feed the oil back to the sump to have any chance of it living.

what oil & oil weight are you using?maybe a change in wieght would help.

Good luck with it all

[Lee.C]

Sorry if I'm too late but I thought "Melling" did a 32mm pump - That what I've got 

[m.m.p]

This is only my opinion

A bigger pump will make no difference at all,if the 30mm pump cant supply enough volume to put the oil light out at idle there is something else wrong,maybe the tolerences in the pump? clearance to the pump cover?the pressure relief valve to case clearance?[easy to check and change,genuine relief valves are usually alot bigger than aftermarket and will tighten up the clearance in there. As far as I can remember and from what you are saying the only difference between Matts motor and mine are the squirters and even at 220f oil temp I have 35psi oil pressure at idle with a 30mm regular shadeck pump wiht the clearances tightened up and I am using a aftermarket case with much poorer tolerances than the factory case you are using.

 
Also the bigger pump will kill that motor at high RPM,it has a relatively small sump/oil capacity[stock waterboxer?] and it will run it dry at higher RPM.You would need to go to a stage 1 1/2 pump and feed the oil back to the sump to have any chance of it living.

what oil & oil weight are you using?maybe a change in wieght would help.

Good luck with it all

thanks richie , obviously cheque all what richie said, i never had a problem with oil presure before, it would be around 10-12psi hot oil, only the last incarnation of the moter with the millers cfs and 8 x 1mm oil squirters i started to have this problem only when hot.

[richie]

With only about 3/4 psi pressure at idle those squirters re more like dribblers  

Maybe it needs a mechanicla guage on there just to see exactly what pressure it has hot and cold all through the rpm range,under load as well


cheers richie,uk

[John Maher]

Do the piston squirters have check valves? Like Martin said, some have an internal spring and ball so they only work when pressure is above 30psi, leaving more in reserve for low rpm/no load running. Whether squirters are necessary is debatable... with a wet sump engine there's a whole shit load of oil flying around inside the crankcase anyway 

I agree with Richie - 30mm pump should be more than adequate if everything's working as it should. IMO 26mm pump is good enough for 99% of engines, showing 70psi plus for the whole pass. It takes bhp to turn big pumps. You shouldn't have to run any more than 10psi per 1000rpm. I run a lot less if there's the option of running a pressure bypass. But I have no experience with wbx cases, so maybe the 10mm oilways are a contributor?

Is there a restrictor in the turbo oil feed line? AN3 or AN4 is way bigger than you need. Fitting a 1.5mm restrictor should see oil pressure at idle improve.

Another thing worth checking... are you running a full flow pump cover? If so, it's worth blocking the oil passage in the case as well as the outlet on the pump itself. Oil routed back into the case will flow the 'wrong way' through the passageway from pump outlet to main gallery and meet the plugged pump body. Oil can bleed back into the sump between the case and pump body causing pressure loss. Maybe this is different on wbx?

Is pressure always low at idle (<10psi) or only for a second or two having backed off after a WOT blast?

[Jim Ratto]

I agree with Richie - 30mm pump should be more than adequate if everything's working as it should.

Another thing worth checking... are you running a full flow pump cover? If so, it's worth blocking the oil passage in the case as well as the outlet on the pump itself. Oil routed back into the case will flow the 'wrong way' through the passageway from pump outlet to main gallery and meet the plugged pump body. Oil can bleed back into the sump between the case and pump body causing pressure loss. Maybe this is different on wbx?

I agree on the 30mm pumps. With these pumps, at hot 1000 revs idle w/ 20W50, I typically see about 30psi (per VDO electric). You can easily modify the Schadeck pumps with about 30 min of work... just follow the old Bill Fisher book.
And yes, I always plug case AND pump at outlet, so there is no "bleedback" when oil gets to temp @ galley (original outlet @ pump).
check fit of bypass to case and how they seat too.

[m.m.p]

Do the piston squirters have check valves? Like Martin said, some have an internal spring and ball so they only work when pressure is above 30psi, leaving more in reserve for low rpm/no load running. Whether squirters are necessary is debatable... with a wet sump engine there's a whole shit load of oil flying around inside the crankcase anyway 

I agree with Richie - 30mm pump should be more than adequate if everything's working as it should. IMO 26mm pump is good enough for 99% of engines, showing 70psi plus for the whole pass. It takes bhp to turn big pumps. You shouldn't have to run any more than 10psi per 1000rpm. I run a lot less if there's the option of running a pressure bypass. But I have no experience with wbx cases, so maybe the 10mm oilways are a contributor?

Is there a restrictor in the turbo oil feed line? AN3 or AN4 is way bigger than you need. Fitting a 1.5mm restrictor should see oil pressure at idle improve.

Another thing worth checking... are you running a full flow pump cover? If so, it's worth blocking the oil passage in the case as well as the outlet on the pump itself. Oil routed back into the case will flow the 'wrong way' through the passageway from pump outlet to main gallery and meet the plugged pump body. Oil can bleed back into the sump between the case and pump body causing pressure loss. Maybe this is different on wbx?

Is pressure always low at idle (<10psi) or only for a second or two having backed off after a WOT blast?

The squirters are just 1mm drillings, the turbo has a -3 line, it has a full flow cover blocked at the pump and the case is blocked, when hot its always below 5psi at idel, and 55psi reved to 7000, when cold 25psi idel and 65 reved to 7000. ill get matt to cheque the oil plunger (wbx had only 1 at the pully end) and pump clearences.

[dangerous]

All this assumes your oil clearances are not excessive but here are some interesting observations.
Check the cam joural clearaces too!!

The water boxer relief valve returns to the suction side of the pump.
This should be reason to use LESS pump size.
UNLESS!
...if at temperature, there is leakage from this port where it crosses the case halves.

Yes large pumps will empty the sump faster.

I have large 3 thou oil clearances and 2.75" main bearings and 2.2" rod journals.
With "KNOWN" oil clearances on everything, including the cam and lifters,
I can still use a 26MM PUMP,
and have 10psi per thousand.(external or adjustable relief valve).

I have restricted most of my pushrods(hollow Pauter adjuster screws),
which helped keep my sump full,
but showed no dramatic pressure change.

When you calculate the area of eight 1mm holes,
it does not equate to much area increase 

[Fasterbrit]

I hear what you are saying guys and it make sense to double check the pump clearances etc. I shall delve in deep and report back with the outcome.

John, do you reckon that my Holset is over-fed oil with -3 line? I am a little nervous about restricting down to 1.5 mm just in case. It's not a fancy ball bearing turbo, just plain bushes.

I have checked oil pressure with a mechanical gauge and it reads exactly as the electrical. Oil pressure is fine at idle when cold (25 psi) it's only when hot that the pressure drops alarmingly. Pick the revs up off idle when hot and the oil pressure comes back in check and is around 40 psi at 4,000 rpm.

I could do without emptying the sump at high rpm, so if I can get away with running the 30 mm at hot idle, that would be the ideal solution. Thanks for all the great input guys!

Cheers, matt

[Martin]

you should be feeding the holset with as much oil as possible, they have there own restrictors in the oil passages to the journal bearings. i used to feed mine with -4 line. just have to make sure the oil can drain without restriction otherwise it will start leaking into the turbine stages.


when you get onto ball bearing turbos you have to have a restrictor in the line as they only need a very small amount of oil. if you over feed a ball bearing turbo it  slows down the balls and they start to skid rather then spin, and this shortens there life.



Martin

[dangerous]

When you calculate the area of eight 1mm holes,
it does not equate to much area increase 

The cross sectional area of eight 1mm holes is the same as an increase of 0.033mm  on 0ne 60mm journal.

[Bruce]

.... its when the oil is hot and at 800rpm the oil light flickers on and off,

This is the real cause of the low oil pressure.  Stock spec idle speed is 800-900.  50-100 rpm will have a big effect on the hot idle pressure.

[Martin]

Do the piston squirters have check valves? Like Martin said, some have an internal spring and ball so they only work when pressure is above 30psi, leaving more in reserve for low rpm/no load running. Whether squirters are necessary is debatable... with a wet sump engine there's a whole shit load of oil flying around inside the crankcase anyway 

I agree with Richie - 30mm pump should be more than adequate if everything's working as it should. IMO 26mm pump is good enough for 99% of engines, showing 70psi plus for the whole pass. It takes bhp to turn big pumps. You shouldn't have to run any more than 10psi per 1000rpm. I run a lot less if there's the option of running a pressure bypass. But I have no experience with wbx cases, so maybe the 10mm oilways are a contributor
Is there a restrictor in the turbo oil feed line? AN3 or AN4 is way bigger than you need. Fitting a 1.5mm restrictor should see oil pressure at idle improve.

Another thing worth checking... are you running a full flow pump cover? If so, it's worth blocking the oil passage in the case as well as the outlet on the pump itself. Oil routed back into the case will flow the 'wrong way' through the passageway from pump outlet to main gallery and meet the plugged pump body. Oil can bleed back into the sump between the case and pump body causing pressure loss. Maybe this is different on wbx?

Is pressure always low at idle (<10psi) or only for a second or two having backed off after a WOT blast?

The squirters are just 1mm drillings, the turbo has a -3 line, it has a full flow cover blocked at the pump and the case is blocked, when hot its always below 5psi at idel, and 55psi reved to 7000, when cold 25psi idel and 65 reved to 7000. ill get matt to cheque the oil plunger (wbx had only 1 at the pully end) and pump clearences.

55psi @ 7000rpm, OUCH!

for stock clearances you should  be looking for 10 psi per 1000rpm. mine is 15psi per 1000rpm seeing as its all sloppy in there and im using that CFS millers stuff.


i think some investigation is required.

It will be all  that pasta in there

[JamieL]

Hi Matt,

Love the car...

My old motor showed exactly the same symptoms as you describe...
OK, so it didn't have the squirters, but it did idle at c. 800rpm - the joy of EFI...
It had a 30mm Shadeck and I also used the Millers oil - my oil light never flickered, but the gauge always showed just under 10psi at hot idle - as soon as rpm picked up, psi did too and ran at about the same as yours, but I never regularly saw 7000rpm or 55psi, maybe 45psi @ 6000...

As Bruce suggested - it might be worth upping your idle rpm by 100...?

Another factor I also pondered over was that is good lubrication purely a product of good pressure?
Surely having good FLOW (volume) through/across journals is also important and having the right combination of flow and pressure is the key...

[Zach Gomulka]

If aftermarket cams were the late style dished type you could fit more pump inside the case rather than having to go out and encroach on your pulley and tin

[Bruce]

55psi @ 7000rpm, OUCH!

for stock clearances you should  be looking for 10 psi per 1000rpm. mine is 15psi per 1000rpm seeing as its all sloppy in there and im using that CFS millers stuff.

You do realize there's an oil pressure relief valve in your engine, don't you?