2017 build...horsepower estimates?

[RFbuilt]

sounds alot like the Cal Look motor Hot VW's did in mid 1990's that made in the region of 140hp (it was 90 x 78, 125 cam FF heads)

or that odd colored car on the cover of the 2003 feb Hot Vw's issue   

90.5x78mance and FF heads with 125 cam...

[bugnut68]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4523803#4523803

I'm a little concerned, not worried, but concerned, about potential deck challenges with this engine... I hadn't really heard anything thus far when asking for feedback on a 78.4 x 90.5 build, but what's everyone's feedback here?  There's a few on the Samba that say a 78.4 crank is a pain in the ass to set up when it comes to deck height, but I hadn't heard anything to that effect when soliciting feedback on this build earlier.  Do I have much to be concerned with?

[Donny B.]

I am running a 78 crank and had to shorten the barrels about .040 to get the deck I wanted.  No spacers and I am running lower compression than most, but I have fairly large cc heads.

[DKK Ted]

Rayan, what cc's do you have in the heads? And what CR do you want to run?

Ted

[bugnut68]

Rayan, what cc's do you have in the heads? And what CR do you want to run?

Ted

Ted I haven't actually measured the chambers yet, but the ad on the Samba for Steve and Greg Tims I think said 57cc.  I will be verifying this when I have a chance, but I'm looking at running 8.5:1 compression, most likely.  Maybe 9:1 if I can get away with it (I'm at 4800 feet elevation here in Lake County, Oregon!)

[stealth67vw]

I had a W125 in a 1776 and ran 8.9:1 with stock valve heads and 44 IDFs. The oil temp never went over 210F and the heads never went over 350F. I upped the heads to 40 x 35.5 044s and 48 IDAs and bumped up the CR to 9.3:1. Believe it or not, 9.3:1 ran cooler and this was at sea level.

[DKK Ted]

Ok Ryan, you'll need roughly .032 deck is what ya need for 9:0.1. So maybe a .040 shim or a .030 if ya want to keep around 9:0.1. You should be good either way, but make sure on the head cc's. Of course the higher the better. :-)

Ted

[bugnut68]

Ok Ryan, you'll need roughly .032 deck is what ya need for 9:0.1. So maybe a .040 shim or a .030 if ya want to keep around 9:0.1. You should be good either way, but make sure on the head cc's. Of course the higher the better. :-)

Ted

I have a head CC kit, but have a quick question.  It's been a few years since I last used it, and I seem to remember having troubles with getting the air bubble out of the chamber.  Any recommendations on how to set it up and get the measurement accurately?  It seemed like nothing I did got rid of the air bubble under the disc, so I was just wondering.

[DKK Ted]

Make sure the head is seating flat, but, you have to play with it, meaning, just move the head around till the bubble is by the hole, then kinda pick at it like popping a bubble. That will kinda work it out or pop out. I ran into the same problem, but I got it. Just takes some patients.

Ted

[bugnut68]

Make sure the head is seating flat, but, you have to play with it, meaning, just move the head around till the bubble is by the hole, then kinda pick at it like popping a bubble. That will kinda work it out or pop out. I ran into the same problem, but I got it. Just takes some patients.

Ted

Great, I appreciate the advice!  Look forward to putting it to work.

[Zach Gomulka]

I'm a little concerned, not worried, but concerned, about potential deck challenges with this engine... I hadn't really heard anything thus far when asking for feedback on a 78.4 x 90.5 build, but what's everyone's feedback here?  There's a few on the Samba that say a 78.4 crank is a pain in the ass to set up when it comes to deck height, but I hadn't heard anything to that effect when soliciting feedback on this build earlier.  Do I have much to be concerned with?

If you call having the tops of the cylinders machined down a "pain in the ass", then yes, I suppose it is.

I'd set her up with .040" deck and let the compresson settle at 8.9:1. In the future you can upgrade to 94's and let the compression rise to 9.5:1 with everything else remaining the same.

[bugnut68]

I'm a little concerned, not worried, but concerned, about potential deck challenges with this engine... I hadn't really heard anything thus far when asking for feedback on a 78.4 x 90.5 build, but what's everyone's feedback here?  There's a few on the Samba that say a 78.4 crank is a pain in the ass to set up when it comes to deck height, but I hadn't heard anything to that effect when soliciting feedback on this build earlier.  Do I have much to be concerned with?

If you call having the tops of the cylinders machined down a "pain in the ass", then yes, I suppose it is.

I'd set her up with .040" deck and let the compresson settle at 8.9:1. In the future you can upgrade to 94's and let the compression rise to 9.5:1 with everything else remaining the same.

For me, the only pain in the ass about having machine work done is that it's got to be done by mail order, lol.  I don't think we have anybody locally doing much automotive machining anymore... at least no one that wants to even look at Volkswagen stuff.  I'm thinking I can probably get away with 8.9:1 cmpression given my elevation here (almost a mile high! within 400 feet, at least).

[Jim Ratto]

Ok Ryan, you'll need roughly .032 deck is what ya need for 9:0.1. So maybe a .040 shim or a .030 if ya want to keep around 9:0.1. You should be good either way, but make sure on the head cc's. Of course the higher the better. :-)

Ted

I wouldn't run a deck that tight. My limit is .040", no tighter. Even that is closing it in tight. I know of a guy that ran .040 and pistons met heads in a bad way when engine got hot. Probably whipped crank, but even still, just goes to show how fast things go wrong.
Not sure why so much fuss over shimming/trimming, etc. I run 78mm with stock VW rods, no shims, new case, stepped for 94's, came out .061"
78mm motors are simple to build, thanks to lack of carving in case, everything clears the cam on full swing and the deck situation.
8.9:1 will run with the W125, make sure you jet it to live. But no way would I run less than .040 dh.

[bugnut68]

Ok Ryan, you'll need roughly .032 deck is what ya need for 9:0.1. So maybe a .040 shim or a .030 if ya want to keep around 9:0.1. You should be good either way, but make sure on the head cc's. Of course the higher the better. :-)

Ted

I wouldn't run a deck that tight. My limit is .040", no tighter. Even that is closing it in tight. I know of a guy that ran .040 and pistons met heads in a bad way when engine got hot. Probably whipped crank, but even still, just goes to show how fast things go wrong.
Not sure why so much fuss over shimming/trimming, etc. I run 78mm with stock VW rods, no shims, new case, stepped for 94's, came out .061"
78mm motors are simple to build, thanks to lack of carving in case, everything clears the cam on full swing and the deck situation.
8.9:1 will run with the W125, make sure you jet it to live. But no way would I run less than .040 dh.

I think I ran .050" deck on my 1776 that has semi hemi heads.  Seems to me that the Samba is kind of interesting in the attitudes and comments that are thrown around over there; not just on the performance forum, but overall.  It's a great site, and I don't envy the headaches that Ev and Jenn likely endure running it, but there's a lot of nonsensical attitudes found amongst the forums.  I'm thinking it's likely inevitable given the high amount of traffic that frequent the site.

[Zach Gomulka]

I'm a little concerned, not worried, but concerned, about potential deck challenges with this engine... I hadn't really heard anything thus far when asking for feedback on a 78.4 x 90.5 build, but what's everyone's feedback here?  There's a few on the Samba that say a 78.4 crank is a pain in the ass to set up when it comes to deck height, but I hadn't heard anything to that effect when soliciting feedback on this build earlier.  Do I have much to be concerned with?

If you call having the tops of the cylinders machined down a "pain in the ass", then yes, I suppose it is.

I'd set her up with .040" deck and let the compresson settle at 8.9:1. In the future you can upgrade to 94's and let the compression rise to 9.5:1 with everything else remaining the same.

For me, the only pain in the ass about having machine work done is that it's got to be done by mail order, lol.  I don't think we have anybody locally doing much automotive machining anymore... at least no one that wants to even look at Volkswagen stuff.  I'm thinking I can probably get away with 8.9:1 cmpression given my elevation here (almost a mile high! within 400 feet, at least).

Anyone with a lathe can take some off the cylinders. It's a very simple procedure.

[Paulus]

Saturday i know how many Hp my 2017 have 

Its a 2017 with 48 Idas, 37mm vents, Scat C45 cam, Cr: 9,5  044 ultramag heads, 35,5 x 40 valves, 3 angle valvejob, D ported intakeports, 1 5/8 competition header.

cheers

[neil68]

.
Not sure why so much fuss over shimming/trimming, etc. I run 78mm with stock VW rods, no shims, new case, stepped for 94's, came out .061"
78mm motors are simple to build

The "fuss" being referred to is that on many OEM mag cases, when using an 78.4 mm crank, Mahle 94 B's and stock length rods, you will often end up with around 0.100" DH.  Your's came out to 0.061", so you were more fortunate than others.  My latest 2017 cc had 0.093" when mocked up with no shims, so I elected to switch to 5.5" rods. Others machine the cylinders down and keep the stock length rods.  It is a very common situation with 2007 cc or 2017 cc.  Mine was an OEM VW Brazilian replacement case, but I know it also happens on OEM German cases, and IIRC some Mexican ones as well.

[Jon]

Worst case scenario, with the 78.4 crank and stock rods, is that you get a very narrow engine.
I machine the barrels in the bottom, to avoid to loose any strength in the top end.

[Torben Alstrup]

Yes. And with 5,5" rods and "B" pistons you only have to machine minor off of the cylinders, like 0,5 - 1 mm.- (Personally I like the shorter rod though.)
Wrt. CR. 8,5 - 1  in a set up like that is simply....... - not enough. And especially not at that elevation. Go AT LEAST 9,5 - 1 (using premium gas) There is so much torque hidden in the compression, and Streve´s heads are rather good. So the flame travel is relatively fast, which means that you do not have to yank the ignition way back, which again aids in cooler running heads. I do not know the correction factor for the elevation, (I asked about that in another thread) But I´d say about 5% loss of power. That equals what, about 0,3 loss of dynamic compression (?) which again means that 9,5 - 1  is a safe setting.

125 flywheel hp in a stock weight early to mid 60ies beetle and a 4 ,375 trans equals roughly 15,1 - 3 on the quarter.
140 flywheel hp in the same car and 4,125 R/P equals roughly 14,6 - 8
160 flywheel hp -          "                 -            "                 -  14 to 14,2, and you can dip into the 13´s with slicks.
All at sea level.
T

[bugnut68]

As an update, the engine is basically done... only have to bolt on the fan shroud, exhaust and carbs and hook up the oil lines and filter set up.  Also waiting on my engine test stand to arrive, as I will be breaking the cam in with the engine out of the car.  Getting closer!

[Hotrodvw]

Ryan............need oil and fuel lines, or do you have that covered???  Call me if you need anything.   

[bugnut68]

Ryan............need oil and fuel lines, or do you have that covered???  Call me if you need anything.   

You got me covered on oil lines last year when I was in Eugene!   I am however trying to figure out how long to cut them since the engine is going on the stand first before the car... not sure what length would be?  I think my Berg lines were about 22 or 24 inches in length on my 1776...

[Hotrodvw]

Just get some bulk push lock hose and fittings, use the good schtuff on the car.     OR.....  zip tie the filter housing to the stand and let it hag during break in.   

[bugnut68]

Just get some bulk push lock hose and fittings, use the good schtuff on the car.     OR.....  zip tie the filter housing to the stand and let it hag during break in.   

That's what ya sold me, par'dner!   Yeah, I think I will probably just guesstimate the length... will be buying a set of Berg stainless lines once it goes into the car, so I guess length isn't crucial at this point.

[Hotrodvw]

Why buy Berg when I carry the same stuff at a fraction of the cost?? 

[bugnut68]

Why buy Berg when I carry the same stuff at a fraction of the cost?? 

I didn't know you had the stainless stuff there too?  I'll be in Eugene in a couple of weeks most likely as I have vacation time coming up the week of Feb. 21 through 25!  I'll stop by while in town... I also wanna ride in the turbo beast!

[Hotrodvw]

Duh.............Yeah, and Yeah!!!     

I got it all mang!

[stealth67vw]

Duh.............Yeah, and Yeah!!!     

I got it all mang!

How bout 1/8" NPT male to M10 x 1.0 ISO bubble flair female fittings for installing Line Loc?

[Hotrodvw]

Except that....but I can make it. 
I have one in a 90  fem. bubble flare x mp made up if you need one, I don't need it.