"ROOM" "FOR RENT"

[DOUG BERG]

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[DOUG BERG]

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[DOUG BERG]

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[Brandon Sinclair]

I have to say I enjoy reading this thread everyday since it makes me use my brain and think about things like volumetric efficiency related to cam timing-thanks Doug and Jim.

Hey Doug, did you mention on the last page that you have a cam grind with IO and IC similar to a K8 and EO and EC similar to a K10 or did I miss interpret that? If this is true, what made you decide on this custom grind? 

I understand you are trying to reach greater then 100% VE, NA, and to try to do this you are changine when a valve opens/closes as well as using the scavanging effect of the exhaust to force more air and fuel into the cylinder.  I think I am getting lost looking at the cam card numbers on the K8 and K10-either that or the cold medicine is kicking in!!!

Anyway looking forward to more discussions tomorrow.

k8   IO 24 IC 54 EO 60 EC 18
k10 IO 32 IC 56 EO 66 EC 22

k8/k10 IO 24 IC 54 EO 66 EC 22

[DOUG BERG]

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[DOUG BERG]

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[Peter]

what do you mean Doug,
depending on the choises made, the increase in power in the top end doesnt make up for the decrease of power in the low end?
so net power is lower?
like taking a cam with too much duration and then also retarding it?

[Jim Ratto]

                                                                                      B.S. BUDDY-HOWZIT BRA

                   IT'S CALL'D...   "EDUCE"    OR "EDUCING"      EVEN "EDUCEE"         TO "CONCLUDE FROM GIVEN FACTS" : "DEDUCE"         OR ...

                        ONE THAT RECEIVES OR BENEFITS FROM A SPECIFIC ACTION !!!   OR....   ONE THAT PERFORMS A SPECIFIC ACTION !!



                                              IT'S "THE APPLICATION OF"....   "THE THUMB OVER THE STRAW PRINCIPLES" !!!   (EARLIER POST HERE)

                                                           EVERYTIME "THE OUT DOOR"  CLOSES,,,    IT....    "LOCKS THE SYSTEM DOWN" !!! 

                                                    "INTO A SUSPENDED ANIMATION" !!!  "NO MORE FORWARD PROGRESS" OF EVACUATION !!!

                                                                                                "FROZEN IN TIME"

            A "MERGE COLLECTOR" IS A VACUUM CLEAN'R   "SUCK'N" .....   "FROM" IT'S NEIGHBORS PULSE !!!       SO IF "THE SMOKE RING" CAN "TRAVEL FURTHER"

                                  "THE COLLECTOR"  HAS    "MORE LEVERAGE" ON IT !!!      OR....    "EASIER" TO SLIP OUT "THE BACK DOOR"

  104 "LOBE CENTER IS FULL LIFT"   AT 104 DEG. OF   "CRANK ROTATION" !!!      4 DEG. "SOON'R THAN NORMAL" !!!   =  4 DEG. "SOONER CLOSE TIME" !!! (INT.)
                                                              (MORE CAUGHT IN THE NET)   (LESS BACKWASH)   (LESS LOST)
                                                       
                                      "THE GREATER".....   "THE DYNAMIC COMPRESSION" !!!     ( IT USES  "MORE" OF THE STATIC COMPRESSION #)

                                   "AND THEN"....    10 MORE DEG. "OF DURATION" ON THE OUTLET !!!                  OR... OUTLET "OPEN LONGER"
                                                               ("EVEN THOUGH" FULL LIFT  ON THE OUT CYCLE...  WAS 4 DEG. SOONER)

                                         HOPE THAT "BREAKS IT ON DOWN"  FOR YA !!!   LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED MORE HELP WITH IT !!! 
                                                              THE RAD ONE "MIGHT POLISH IT"  A LITTLE BETTER TOMORROW !!!

                                                                                                     LOVE   DOUG...

                               LET US "KNOW" IF YOU "GOT IT" !!!       "UNDERSTAND'N IS A BOOBIE PRIZE"....        I'D RATHER YOU "JUST GOT IT" !!!

I like setting the cams forward like that, to yes, 104 ATDC. Been setting them all up that way, with more duration than "the cool crowd" seems to go for.
I think the point of the long exhaust open door is "blowdown"... if I remember right, I learned that was # 1 "thing" in the hierarchy of a cam's job. This is going way back though... 
I like the idea of the longer exhaust time, though I've never run one myself, let the waste product do some more work than "make noise", sure, why not increase the pull the heads and carbs see. I'm always up for more signal, but gotta be from bottom to top (no loss on top, or why bother with longer duration, 48's...etc)
For me to "get" why the advance in the cam's "job" works, I have to draw cartoons of what's taking place. easiest way to understand it.
Doug, did you ever read my bit about "plenum-ed" 48IDA manifolds? For race stuff. To make a long story short, which I can w/ you, because I know you'll get it... 1. join the two intake runners somewhere north of intake flange, but south of butterfiles (imagine a Skat Trak that, as it Y's up, joins into a common plenum, under BOTH butterflies)2. at high revs, on intake stroke ONE cylinder, while IO, can pull through TWO butterflies, vents, jet stacks...etc.
Yeah i know, what happens to low speed running? I have no answer here... I only looked at it from high revs, that big fat cylinder is basically seeing the sky as air/fuel source.
what do you think about that? Maybe you guys have fooled w/ it? I remember seeing a motor in the back shop one day your Mom was walking us around, and there was a drag motor on the floor with a DCNF per cylinder ... you?

Thanks for the fun,
Jim

[DOUG BERG]

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[drgouk]

Heres we go Jim http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=913554

[Jim Ratto]

it's been done! I wonder how they worked? Should I buy 'em?

[drgouk]

It would be neat to have a set with a easy way of blocking the plenum, So on the dyno it could be back to backed. Also plenum volume would be important I bet.
Poor mans 58's

[Jim Ratto]

It would be neat to have a set with a easy way of blocking the plenum, So on the dyno it could be back to backed. Also plenum volume would be important I bet.
Poor mans 58's

yeah like a tunnel ram with 2 dominators but for VW. oops there I go comparing Chevies with VWs 

[danny gabbard]

Doug, The more I read the more stupid I feel ! This stuff is very interesting. For somebody as simple as me, What or where can A guy like me start reading and get educated a little more on this stuff. I relise it is a life time of doing it and haveing the passion. But better now that later learning for me. I like to make stuff and sometimes you have to tell your tools what to do, I have been lucky and sometime found some pre educated tools and they just end up doing the work. But moveing into areas not traveled it makes me a little nervous and I do not make a move and stay stagnet if you know what I mean. I want to build a engine for one of my cars and have the peices but kinda scared to go farther. 

[danny gabbard]

O-YA is it alright to smoke in your room ?

[Jim Ratto]

Doug, The more I read the more stupid I feel ! This stuff is very interesting. For somebody as simple as me, What or where can A guy like me start reading and get educated a little more on this stuff. I relise it is a life time of doing it and haveing the passion. But better now that later learning for me. I like to make stuff and sometimes you have to tell your tools what to do, I have been lucky and sometime found some pre educated tools and they just end up doing the work. But moveing into areas not traveled it makes me a little nervous and I do not make a move and stay stagnet if you know what I mean. I want to build a engine for one of my cars and have the peices but kinda scared to go farther. 

I'm kinda working on something on the side, that guys can refer to on "how stuff works"... we'll see how it turns out. I think a lot of figuring this stuff out is half science and half having in it your blood and half just trying stuff. Talking car stuff is what gives me a total rush, makes me forget the boring parts of life etc. Some guys like to solo on a Stratocaster, I like driving and talking cars. A lot. Don't feel stupid, dude, you have talents and tricks beyond comprehension (your whole deal with welding header pipes with the hose clamp.... genius if you ask me). Obviously, Doug is talented and gifted as well, just read the stuff he creates and comes up with. Maybe to some a little eccentric (so?) but no matter, if it's what "gives him wings" then fly. I thought about this "plenum" thing one night after a bottle of chianti and listening to tunes and going into "think mode" and I wish I had a dyno and could weld and so on... too cool to see it's been done. I just wonder if it worked?
I bet your area is looking nice up there this weekend.  

[danny gabbard]

Thanks JIM, You guys are all artist, And like I try to tell people. Everbody shine some where. To me this engine designing, Is like a baby takeing its first step. I have built stuff and it has ran and some for quite some time, But not at the caliber you guys are doing. Mine ran from luck, more than anything. I am in a place where I have been messing with these cars for over 30 years and I want to start learning more about what makes them run. Than makeing them shiney, If you know what I mean! This place that we all hang out in are spare time has some very talented people.

[Jim Ratto]

Thanks JIM, You guys are all artist, And like I try to tell people. Everbody shine some where. To me this engine designing, Is like a baby takeing its first step. I have built stuff and it has ran and some for quite some time, But not at the caliber you guys are doing. Mine ran from luck, more than anything. I am in a place where I have been messing with these cars for over 30 years and I want to start learning more about what makes them run. Than makeing them shiney, If you know what I mean! This place that we all hang out in are spare time has some very talented people.

Danny, I could use your opinion buddy..
I have some extra '67 reverse lights, the shells are so so, but the frames and lenses are sweet. I think I am going to make courtesy interior lights out of them.... either in lower rear corner of door panels or one centered up inbetween on front kick panel. I mocked it up and it looks classy. Your thoughts? I know this is Off topic, sorry but seems any direction is ok in Doug's room... sorry Doug. 

[danny gabbard]

Great Idea, I think somewhere under dash,So if you needed to read or look at something while driveing. Plus its made from OEM parts. I try never to make anything you can buy. One thing does the bulb holder separate from houseing?  If I remember VW thing has a neat little interior light also.

[DOUG BERG]

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[Jim Ratto]

 

[Jim Ratto]

you might enjoy the story behind the band's name.... not about the band, not how they chose it but the orig meaning of their name....

[danny gabbard]

A quick question. This has been puzzleing me. On exaust stuff in the vw industry. If this even matters, But I have noticed that guys spend all this time on porting and polishing heads, Then bolt on a shitty fitted mig welded mess they call exaust. The collectors got wire and stuff sticking through in the flow of the tubes. Ive been lucky enough to seen some of the stuff my friend lance has done for the IRL,CART,F1 and I am not compareing But the shit was very nice. He was probably the one that brought inconel to the race car industry, Makes burns stuff look like a first time welder. If anybodys listening?

[Jim Ratto]

     PETER,,,

                                                                GOTTA CHEW ON YOUR MEAN'N A LIL' CAUSE ONLY "1LINE"... 
                                                    'BOUT NET POWER IS ALL THAT DONT FIT MY BELIEFS,,,   REST IS DEAD ON !!
                                                          TRY'N TO FIGURE "WHAT I SAID WHERE" FOR "YOU" TO GET THERE

                                                           HOPE I DONT GET "FIRED" FOR PUNCH'N IN LATE "HERE" TODAY !!!
                                                                        MY HEAD "HIT THE PILLOW HARD" AT 5AM !!!   
                                                                                         COULDNT LET IT GO !!!
                                            WAY TOO MANY GREAT IDEAS HERE !!!     "FOR A SIMPLE MAN" !!!   OR   (SIMPLETON LIKE ME)
                                      "YOU GUYS GOT MY MIND" ON OVERDRIVE HERE !!!  LOVE'N IT  CANT FIND THIS SHIT ANYWHERE ELSE !!!

                                                  AND....    YOU GUYS DIDNT EVEN "GROW UP ON THE DYNO"....   ITS MIND BLOW'N !!!

                                                                             GOTTA GO GET SOME TRUK'R MUD !!!


         JIM ,,,,   

                         "ALWAYS KNOW"   ONE SIDE IS "UP"  &  ONE SIDE IS "DOWN"  ON THE BUMPSTICK !!!   "104 IN".... IS "OPPOSITE OUT" !!!     

                                                                                            GET IT

                                                                                           LOVE   DOUG

                                                                                           LIKE 112 OUT!!!


                                  YES "4" 42'S ON "ONE ENGINE" IS  "ME"  !!!   TALK MORE ON PLENUMNS !!!   GOTTA GO  SEE "JOE" !!!

right... if we take a 108/108 cam, and shove it forward 4 deg, then we have a 104/112...or more specifically, 104ATDC and 112ABDC, unless... you had the exhausts ground 4 deg behind. Do guys do that? I haven't looked into the exh side of things as much as the intake, admittedly. What about different profiles for each corner of motor, dependent on your constraints when it comes to header (or lack of) design?
Nobody said every egg in the dozen had to match.