Engine and parts help... mild road engine project

[Dirk / DFL]

Btw. why not buy Zotz at Amazon ? 

http://www.amazon.com/Zotz-Power-Cherry-Watermelon-Flavors/dp/B000E7SYLG

[Nico86]

Btw. why not buy Zotz at Amazon ? 

http://www.amazon.com/Zotz-Power-Cherry-Watermelon-Flavors/dp/B000E7SYLG

 

[Nico86]

Both halves done. I will now drill and tape the oil plugs.

[Nico86]

Today we put the crank and rods in the case to check clearance, everything is ok.


I also weight the Rimco rods, they are supposed to be clearanced and balanced but here's the problem :

#4 : 535.10 g
#3 : 534.92 g
#2 : 535.30 g
#1 : 528.72 g  

I didn't tried to weigth them end-to-end, I'll do it tomorrow but I guess I'll have to balance them again. What's the maximum gap to have between the rods? (I know it's 7g from factory for a stock engine).

[Type1/DVK]

as less as possible, but 7g is ALOT! and they don't look that strong anymore to me (page 10) unitech hd's (scat) are very nice, maybe consider those.

[Donny B.]

I'm not a big fan of RIMCO rods for the reason you stated.  I will have two sets of RIMCO rods going up for sale soon...

[Nico86]

Thanks guys.

as less as possible, but 7g is ALOT! and they don't look that strong anymore to me (page 10) unitech hd's (scat) are very nice, maybe consider those.

You mean by CB? http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1179

[Type1/DVK]

I wouldn't use them, and they also have the original bolts. (the rimco's)
 
No these are better, in your link are the Unitech HD and below in the picture are the Unitech HD Plus with ARP bolts.


Very nice product for a good price.

[Nico86]

Ok I see. I found these Unitech HD Plus : http://www.vwparts.net/CB1252.html but also from CB??

And the Scat : http://www.vwparts.net/SEICR5500-3.html

Both with ARP 3/8 bolts.

[Type1/DVK]

strange, i don't have any experience with those CB's, looks are the same almost. Only there is a price difference that atrracts my attention (negatively). Since i've got my own experience with the scat's up to 7500rpm (recently inspected, totally no damage or fatigue/stretch). Last month i handled those cheap ass unitechs and there are crap (measurements were way off! weights didn't check) so RTS). It's ashame that the unitech name is on those rods. Go for HD's and your motor wil live longer

[Nico86]

Yes those cheap $90 CB look... cheap! I'm not after high rpm's and severe track use, I'll think about what I'll do, keep the 311 Rimco's or go for Scat's (or I also have a set of untouched stock 311 rods).

[qubek]

I use Scats. With their price, I think there is no point in buying ARP bolts and rebuilding, weighting of stock rods.
But I'm generally not a big fan of those re-manufactured rods, welded cranks etc. Yes, they are old-school etc, but it seems to be their main advantage, really
I have no experience with Unitech/CB.

[TexasTom]

Personally, I would MUCH RATHER run a welded stroker made from a good GERMAN core crankshaft with WELDED counterweights than use one of the CHEAP (in more ways than one) Chinese cranks out there ...
I use DPR for my welded cranks & they always drop right in, no clearance or endplay issues; SOLID, STRONG and made to RUN!
Now, I certainly can't speak for them all, but the Chinese ($250-$350) cranks I've tried needed additional clearancing either to itself or the case to fit and spin properly. Also, there were issues with inconsistent endplay measurements ... What A HASSLE!

Just my opinion ... Keep Smilin'!

[DKK Ted]

What Tom say's, I also use DPR, before, I used Demilo crank's. Rods, I use to use Rimco Super Rods, and thier stock rods for stock motors. Now I use Eagle Rods when I can get them or  CB H-beam rods. The I beam rods that Scat look good, the extra meat a the cap I like. So my vote would be the Scat rod's for sure.

Ted

[Zach Gomulka]

What Tom said!!

Balance the rods end for end and see where the 7 grams needs to come from. 7 grams from something like pistons is a LOT, but with rods it's do-able. Steve Hollingsworth balanced mine within 2 tenths of a gram, end for end and total.

[Type1/DVK]

zach, take a look at the rod's at page 10, they look all nice oldschool etc. But they will fail in the end IMHO. Bolts are halfway gone and maybe they had a rough life, if ALL measurements are correct i still would'nt use them. You don't want to mess around with this because IF it fails your complete engine is ruined. Please Nico, go for good rods don't go cheap on those.

[Nico86]

Thanks for your advices guys. I showed the rods to my dad and he told me the same about the bolts.
We'll check again but I'll consider using Scat I-beam rods.

The stock length rods are the 5.394" ? http://www.vwparts.net/SEICR5394-3.html

[Zach Gomulka]

According to the paperwork the bolts are new, right Nico? Many a hot VW stroker motor has been built over the decades with rods just like that. I'd balance them end for end, see where the weight needs to come off before deciding to put them in the trash.

[qubek]

Personally, I would MUCH RATHER run a welded stroker made from a good GERMAN core crankshaft with WELDED counterweights than use one of the CHEAP (in more ways than one) Chinese cranks out there ...
I use DPR for my welded cranks & they always drop right in, no clearance or endplay issues; SOLID, STRONG and made to RUN!
Now, I certainly can't speak for them all, but the Chinese ($250-$350) cranks I've tried needed additional clearancing either to itself or the case to fit and spin properly. Also, there were issues with inconsistent endplay measurements ... What A HASSLE!

Just my opinion ... Keep Smilin'!

A welded stroker crank is made of German steel... plus some American (hopefully) welds and some counterweights of an unknown origin. Of course such cranks can work. But they can also be very difficult to balance (at least this is what I heard). I think it is not that easy to make such a crank and there is a place for possible mistake in the process. Even if there are no faults, putting aside all the "cool factor" (old-school, "the way it was done back in the days" etc), a new forged crank just sounds like a better solution.
I was not thinking about cheap Chinese cranks initially , but while we're at it, I don't think there are such a bad option. I have seen a Chinese crank which was badly machined. But the forging itself seemed to be good. And the machining could be redone easily, and would cost less then the difference between this crank's price and a price of a similar unit from a more reputable company. All in all, even this cheap Chinese crank can be a good option. And I can bet it would not fail. Plus, the options out there are not limited to "old-school welded German cranks" versus "cheap Chinese uncool staff".

We are talking about engine internals here. Let at least try to keep sentiments aside

Zach, I like your engine project, but I had an impression that Nico have more efficiency and durability in mind then "old-schooleness". Of course - I may be wrong.

And please remember that sometimes people have done some thinks over the decades not because it was the best way, but because they had no other options, which we now have.

[Nico86]

The paper from Rimco says new bolts yes. Anyways I'll check where's the weigth problem during the week and I'll see what I'll do. First I also have to finish the case, and send the crank to balancing with the clutch and pulley, and paint a few parts.

[Zach Gomulka]

Qubek, next time you're in SoCal have Jose take you through a tour at DPR.

[Speed-Randy]

Nico, just do what Zach said. I've been running those rods in my 2085(78x92) for nearly 10 years trouble free, and I definatly drive my car like I stole it

[DKK Ted]

Nico, just send the rods with the rest of your parts to balance. Then they'll rebalance the rods the right way.      Ted

[qubek]

Qubek, next time you're in SoCal have Jose take you through a tour at DPR.

Why not? I plan to be in California in August and a tour around VW shops is of course envisaged.

But going back to the topic - Nico already has the rods, so the easiest way seems to be just fixing them. BTW Nico - are you sure the problems is with the rods, not the measurements?

[Zach Gomulka]

Zach, I like your engine project, but I had an impression that Nico have more efficiency and durability in mind then "old-schooleness". Of course - I may be wrong.

What in your mind is it about my engine build that isn't durable and efficient? And reliable, if I say so myself.

[Nico86]

Thanks for your tips guys.  I can consider using the Scat's, but if the Rimco rods are strong enough for my engine, I'd rather use them.

BTW Nico - are you sure the problems is with the rods, not the measurements?

I think I measured it correctly. I can try on another scale but I think it will be the same. I'll work on a montage to weight the rods end to end and I'll do it again.

Nico, just send the rods with the rest of your parts to balance. Then they'll rebalance the rods the right way.      Ted

I'll ask my local machine shop about it.

[qubek]

Zach, I like your engine project, but I had an impression that Nico have more efficiency and durability in mind then "old-schooleness". Of course - I may be wrong.

What in your mind is it about my engine build that isn't durable and efficient? And reliable, if I say so myself.

I didn't say it isn't.
You want to have an engine which is durable, reliable, efficient and more or less period correct at the same time. Am I right? This can be done, but is a tad more difficult than building an engine which is to achieve only the first three goals. One constraint less.
If I considered your project unreliable or inefficient, I wouldn't say I like it.
Relax Zach, I did not want to touch you or to say that your advice is not good. What I want to say is that IMHO there are other options, which are also good. I think the appropriate (although - in my personal opinion - quite disgusting) English proverb is "there is more than one way to skin a cat".

[Jon]

A welded crank is in my mind infinitely much better than a cheap crank forged today.
Perhaps Besserwisser can chime in on this?

I rank stroker cranks this way:
Billett
Berg (Swedish)
Welded stock
Forged (all)
Cast (all)


 

[Zach Gomulka]

It's all good Qubek, I wasn't getting offended You are right, those are my goals. And it is MUCH more difficult when you factor in period correctness! The only thing I am sacrificing in my build (other than $$$$) is power. It would cost just the same to build a 1915 with a larger cam and have 25+ more hp, but what's the fun in that?! I never suspected Nico was trying to build a period correct engine. There's really nothing period correct about a 1904cc with IDF's. I was suggesting parts that would work well together, be affordable, and easy to upgrade in the future. I NEVER suggest to my friends to go down the period correct route. It's a bottomless money pit! Even the motor I built for AssHull's '67 was a simple 1915 (welded c/w crank ), nothing at all fancy about it. It's a fantastic all around engine, too.

But back on topic... welded cranks and stock reworked rods are proven to work, and work quite well for a very long time if done right. For the money invested in these parts, I don't think there is a better value. I know many engine builders who trust in DPR's work.

Nico, glad to hear the 74mm crank "dropped in"

[Nico86]

DPR cranks are for sure good pieces of work. I showed mine to some friends who are into Renault and Gordini engines, they were jealous that someone is selling such forged/welded counterweights cranks for VWs   (and for that price, and with several strokes available).

(A new forged crank for a 1300cc Gordini engine cost about 2000€, and you have to wait a long-long time to have yours because the company that made them waits to have several orders to start producing.)

Billet and Berg cranks are even better I think, but if it was the only quality choice many of us couldn't afford a hot VW engine.

About the rods : the std stock length of VW rods is 5.394" right?