Berg traction bar tips

[javabug]

I like your thinking.

[Lids]

The only possible problem with this is that you have now created a lever that could rip the bolts out.

If you kept the original design the rod acted vertically through the bolts thus no distance from direction of force, hence no moment and no lever.

[Fiatdude]

Yep -- those brackets need to installed vertically

[JS]

Agreed, the bracket could also twist...

[65bug]

Guys,
     You mean to tell me people have been mounting their traction bar off on hole(the stock factory one) with no brackets at all. And it's held for years!!!! I'll be the first to admit it if they ever move. For now, I will be known as THE GUY WITH THE HORIZONTAL TRACTION BAR MOUNTS......................

[RhoadsVW]

It won't move or do anything but work.  I had mine that way except underneath the bumper bracing using the stock hole that's there.  And I had only one bolt holding mine on with the bracket wedged against the bumper bracing.  And you also have it into the double thickness of the sheet metal.  Looks good.  You shouldn't have any problems.   Dave Rholads

[65bug]

Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................

[danny gabbard]

If worried, Make a doubler plate for back side. Plus your going through two layer's of sheetmetal rather than the single one if mounted  vertical.

[Lids]

Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................

I never said it would be a problem, just that it might.  It is a leaver as the direction of force is not acting through the centre of the mounting position, so the when the engine pushes down on launch the threaded bolt will pull down on the bracket just like a door handle.  The fact it is supported by the bracket doesn't change this fact, but the bracket probably helps by having a higher shear force than the downward force and hence will stay there.

[Kaferdog]

How are the bolts on the other side ...?...any pics...?

[BeetleBug]

3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.

I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.

A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

-BB-

[65bug]

beetlebug,
         hmmmmmm, that custom job is mounted very similar to mine. Another lever?. I am putting out about 200 HP. I honestly do not think it will be a problem. When I lined my bracket up vertically, it did not sit flat. Second, it did not lay on the bumper ledge at all. Not even close. Third, it would have only been bolted through a single piece of sheet metal. Fourth, I did not want to have to drill through my engine compartment. That would have bothered me. So this was MY solution. Dave Rhoads verified it, as it was his solution too.
       
       
Kaferdog,
      Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.

Danny,
       No worries here. Thanks
       

[BeetleBug]

Not sure why you feel like you have to answer me that way as I`m sure you`re solution will work. I have twice the power you have and it works for me with my single, original hole kinda thing  

beetlebug,
         hmmmmmm, that custom job is mounted very similar to mine. Another lever?. I am putting out about 200 HP. I honestly do not think it will be a problem. When I lined my bracket up vertically, it did not sit flat. Second, it did not lay on the bumper ledge at all. Not even close. Third, it would have only been bolted through a single piece of sheet metal. Fourth, I did not want to have to drill through my engine compartment. That would have bothered me. So this was MY solution. Dave Rhoads verified it, as it was his solution too.
        
      
Kaferdog,
      Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.

Danny,
       No worries here. Thanks
        

[Rennsurfer]

Great post, BeetleBug and really like the looks of that traction bar.

[Zach Gomulka]

I do like the fact that the hardware isn't showing in the engine compartment

[Diederick/DVK]

Kalle, are you trying to plug the SCC videos in this topic?

[BeetleBug]

Dam..was it so obvious 

Kalle, are you trying to plug the SCC videos in this topic?

[Fiatdude]

The thought and workmanship in both of those brackets is fantastic

Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................

I know for a lot of you guys we are not talking about huge HP/Torque engines, but let me try to explain explain why Horizontal mounting is not as good as vertical mounting. The most important force involved here is the shearing at where the bolts are located, this will cause, in severe situations, damage to either the bolts or the sheet metal supporting/anchoring the bolts.

When the bracket is mounted up & down/vertically you have the downward force being placed equally on both bolts. with both bolts sharing the load.

But when the bracket is mounted horizontally you end up with a twisting force being placed onto the bracket and the bolt in the middle of the bracket then absorbing MOST of the downward energy and the other bolt acting more as a fulcrum than an anchor. -- If you doubt me, loosen up the bolts on the bracket until the bracket is just barely attached then pull down on the bar. you will even probably see the bar at end where it is bolted get twisted upward. This is because of some of the energy is transmitted to that bolt while the bolt in the middle is being the fulcrum. In any case, the forces being exerted on the middle bolt are multiplied greatly in the horizontal mounting.

But this argument is mute it your not generating enough energy onto that bracket to cause any damage., or you've built a bracket that is designed at overkill.

[Kaferdog]

Kaferdog,
      Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.
        

I guess what I was trying to say was ......Where do they "show" on the ""Other side".....Any pics ?

[cassa]

3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.

I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.

A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.

-BB-

I have mocked up a similar traktion bar for my 67. I dont have room for a CSP bar, and dont know if it will do the job.
I use 40x20mm bar with brackets in the bumper bracket. Brackets in picture only for mock-up

reg
c

[65bug]

beetlebug,
       That reply about the lever was not directed at you. And I know there's not enough force to even phase it. That's why I felt it was a viable alternative and mounted it that way. IT also rests flatter against the panel that way vs. vertically. I would be more concerned with the body taking a hit then anything. And It's double walled there where I drilled.
       I understand what you guys are saying about the pivot effect. However, the right side of the bolt closest to the tab is laying up against the bumper support. And the left side of the right bolt.............................well HAS ANOTHER BOLT IN IT. So it's held down on both ends. I dont think it's ever going anywhere. So really there is no pivot effect. It's been eliminated.
       There is more stress concentrated in one area now for sure. But I think it's still overkill and should work fine.
      Kaferdog, I will get a pic for you as soon as I can. I worked about 14 hours today. I can tell you it's a small area in there where they fit. Directly below the shelf in the engine bay. I will have to crawl up under the car to get you a pic.
       Glad to see beetle bugs pics of that NICE CUSTOM set up is mounted similar to mine....................
     

[Bruce]

  The most important force involved here is the shearing at where the bolts are located, this will cause, in severe situations, damage to either the bolts or the sheet metal supporting/anchoring the bolts.

This isn't the case.  Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.
The bracket that's being talked about with the 2 bolts stays put due to the large amount of friction between the bracket and the body of the car.  This friction is created due to the tension in the bolts.  In order for those bolts to be in shear, the bracket would have to slip due to the applied load until the bracket contacts the bolts.  Anytime you have a bracket that slips, you either don't have the bolts tight enough, or they're too small.

[Jon]

Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.

There is a nugget of gold in any thread.

About the hanging of a engine/gearbox unit.
Ever tried to break something like a twig or a board of wood in two? If you use only your hands you will have a tough time doing it, introduce your knee into the task and you do it without problems.
Meaning more supports are not necessarily good if they are placed wrong.

Rumor: You can tell how much power a car fitted with a Berg traction has by measuring the gap of the engine lid?

[early-air]

will the traction bar work on a ghia? or will it distort the body? any views on this?

[Lee.C]

Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.

There is a nugget of gold in any thread.

About the hanging of a engine/gearbox unit.
Ever tried to break something like a twig or a board of wood in two? If you use only your hands you will have a tough time doing it, introduce your knee into the task and you do it without problems.
Meaning more supports are not necessarily good if they are placed wrong.

Rumor: You can tell how much power a car fitted with a Berg traction has by measuring the gap of the engine lid?

[/q

hehehehehhhehehehehee

[65bug]

early-air,
       Call Gene Berg. I can bet they have a traction bar for your Ghia! They are heavy duty and mine is making a huge difference! You could of course make your own. Does not seem to be too big a deal.       BRUCE TWEDDLE GETS MY VOTE FOR NEW CAL LOOK LOUNGE MODERATOR Thank you Bruce!

[Fiatdude]

3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.

I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.

A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.

-BB-

I have mocked up a similar traktion bar for my 67. I dont have room for a CSP bar, and dont know if it will do the job.
I use 40x20mm bar with brackets in the bumper bracket. Brackets in picture only for mock-up

reg
c

Geez Cassa -- I couldn't afford your Braided stainless bill --Holy Moly that's a ton of lines

[cassa]

Geez Cassa -- I couldn't afford your Braided stainless bill --Holy Moly that's a ton of lines
[/quote]

   A 3 stage drysump pump and mechanical Aeromotive fuelpump will do that to you... 

And there is still a couple of lines missing..

[65bug]

Hey guys,
  Happy 4TH to all you guys. I got to work on my car some today and snapped some pics of the traction bar bracket bolts. Here's some pics lying on my back shooting upwards.

[65bug]

traction bar works awesome!!!!!! What a difference it has made. So far so good...............................