002 -091 box ?

[T11964]

Was set on a 091 box  but read Ron Flemming uses a 002 box in the Hunsaker racecar .
 What`s the advantage ?      just  weight ?

[Mike Lawless]

Seems a good number of drag race cars use the 002 case. Ours for example is the 002 five rib "pyramid" case. The 002 bell housing is preferred because it doesn't have the extra mounting bosses on top and the depth is close to that of a type 1

We have eight seasons and about 700 runs on the case and internals, and it's had one ring & pinion change. I'm not very nice to it either. 1900lb car, 8000 rpm launch.

Rancho built it back at the beginning of 2003 and in 2010 they put in the Weddle ring and pinion.

[Udo]

We also have the 002 in the Vanderhorst super street car . It gets the first check this year ..

Udo

[Bruce]

Ours for example is the 002 five rib "pyramid" case.

Dave Folts told me the 5 rib case is just as strong as the 091 case, but it's 4 lbs lighter.

One big difference between an 091 and the earlier gearbox is the width of 3rd and 4th gears.  Much wider on the 091.  But it gets you no more reliability since the narrower 002 gears never break.  Any gear problem is always the dog teeth on the side of the gear.

[T11964]

Thanks for posting comments !
Will consider the 002 box now.
      Claus.

[didi]

Ours for example is the 002 five rib "pyramid" case.

Dave Folts told me the 5 rib case is just as strong as the 091 case, but it's 4 lbs lighter.

One big difference between an 091 and the earlier gearbox is the width of 3rd and 4th gears.  Much wider on the 091.  But it gets you no more reliability since the narrower 002 gears never break.  Any gear problem is always the dog teeth on the side of the gear.

also the 1st/2nd gears are wider on the 091 box. but you have right, the 002/113 gears are strong enough for a lot of abuse.

didi

[-Alex-]

This is another good reason to abandon thoughts about early 915:s, and use 002 / 091 with berg 5-speed

[gator_push]

Dirk Kunold did the conversion on my car last winter, after 3(!) broken boxes last season. So far no issues with the 002 box, I am happy 

The replacement was almost flawless except some manufacturing issues with the Folts kit. Mike's website delivers great information on the T2 swap, I can confirm all his experiences.

[bedjo78]

can we use 091 gears 3rd and 4rd into 002 5 ribs? i sale 091 and kept the gears.

[Bruce]

No.  They are too wide.

[jeff01]

what ring and pinion you all use in 002 ? I thauht that they are with insane numbers like 5.38 or something 

[Mike Lawless]

4.57 is pretty common. It's a very strong gear set. When we first got our bus trans, it was with a stock gearset that was modified to go with the type 1 intermediate housing and 002 gear stack. We put several hundred runs on that, and a couple years ago, it was starting to show stress, so Mike at Rancho installed the Weddle 4.57. Weddle now makes a 4.12. The stock 4.86 is popular and Doug Berg told me he was testing the 5 speed deal with a 5.38.

It's a matter of wrapping your gearing around whatever ring & pinion you choose I think. They are all way stronger than any type 1 R&P

[Fiatdude]

Mike --- What would you consider the HP level that you'd move from an 002 to a 091?

[Mike Lawless]

Harold, I think the question should be, how much power before you move from a 002 bus box to a Mendy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't even the Mendy use a 002 gear stack?

[Fiatdude]

Jon is running a very high (700) HP number and he has a 091 in his car and was wondering if this isn't living on the edge?

[Peter]

hey Mike,
which ratio's did you use?
I am thinking of using a 091 with stock internals and a bus to bug intermediate housing

[Mike Lawless]

Harold, I guess time will tell. Seems most guys have moved to the mendy at around that power level, but I'd assume that with the company he keeps, he'd have CM on it.

Peter, I have a 4.57 Weddle ring & pinion and a 3.55, 2.14, 1.56 and 1.19 gearing. This gives it a fairly low first and it goes through the traps at about 8400 at 120 (when it goes that fast).
You should probably check into the compatibility of parts. I think that the bus to bug intermediate housing precludes using a lot of the 091 internals, which is why the pinion needs to be modified. I am not exactly certain what goes with what since Rancho built this thing.

I can say that the bus box is primarily responsible for keeping me in VW racing. After a few broken T1 trannies back in 2003, and the last breaking on the very first run, I was ready to sell it all and buy a fox body mustang. I can deal with having it serviced every couple of years, mostly for synchro issues, but having them pop after only a few runs is unacceptable.

[Peter]

Thanks, Mike
Do you mean you cant just use the 091 with all 091 gears and intermediate mount and bug nosecone?

[Mike Lawless]

I just don't know for sure Peter. Someone with actual experience will have to answer that. I am only assuming that because of the increased length of the 091 stack, and that  the 002 stack is used with the intermediate housing along with a modified 091 pinion, that this is the situation.

[Fiatdude]

Talked with Jon last night and he currently has a tilton dual disk with clutch management thru all 4 gears, without it, he says, that that clutch is on or off like a light switch -- he is thinking of going to the Lumus dual disc with built in CM -- -- You guys and your expensive toys LOL

[Mike Lawless]

That Lummus thing is pretty close to what the rest of the stick shift racing world uses. A Pretty slick deal. We're only about 20 years behind the times!

[Peter]

Hey guys,
found some info on another forum...
hope you dont mind ?

http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=133067&p=1035058&hilit=091#p1035058

 

[Mike Lawless]

That answers some of your questions Peter. Apparently the spacer is what you need for 091 gears along with the bus to bug intermediate housing.
That will, of course, create some minor fitment complications. The spacer extends the overall length of the trans by 5/16" or 8mm. The nose cone mount is already near flush up against the front chassis bracket for that mount using the Berg rear trans mount. No room for anything in there as it is. You would either need to cut the nose cone mount off, or the chassis mount off, OR, mount the trans a little more rearward. The Bus trans already moves the engine rearward a small amount. Enough to mess up timn fit in a street car. Moving it further back would require more modifications. But in a race car with abbreviated sheet metal in back already, it should not be a problem.

However, with a swing axle set-up, the axle centerline is moved forward 1/2" (13mm) anyway, requiring modifications to the torsion arms to get the alignment correct. Moving the whole enchilada rearward would minimize that.

So, lots of things to think about!

[Peter]

Hello,
yes a lot to think about
I have the advantage that i have a type 3 with lots of room in the back,
so if the engine even moves like 5 cm to the back, i think it will still fit without a problem,
And the car is irs,; another advantage

[Roman]

One of the pros with a 002 is that you can use the Berg intermediate housing and fit it quite easy with the shift rod still in the tunnel.
I installed my 002 in a couple of hours (with Folts axle conversion).

BTW, I bought Mike Lawless last type 1 trans after it breaked.
It still lives in a friends car without any problems, but on the other hand it "only" has about 210 hp.

[Fiatdude]

Jon killed the 091 at Fontana -- R&P went and took most everything else --- but he is sticking with it with a new one in the car for Phoenix -- I need a money tree LOL

[-Alex-]

Is there anyway to put berg bus 5-speed box to beetle, WITHOUT moving engine back and up? My car is a street car and i would like to have all stock tinware.

[Bell]

Can anyone tell me if I can swap out a 002 tranny for a 091?  Will the clutch swap over also from 002 to 091. Its in a dune buggy and the 002 bearings are bad and the 091 seems to be in ok shape..

[Tufty65]

Not sure the mounting options are the same plus the 091 uses a different starter and longer input shaft.

[Dougy Dee]

Not sure the mounting options are the same plus the 091 uses a different starter and longer input shaft.

Just use the 002 Bellhousing and cut or swap the input shaft...