My Road Trip Motor Progress

[rick m]

If all the VW crowd can venture outside the VW world long enough to study what V8s have been doing, along with cam timing (lobe seperation, when the intake closes, etc,) you can quickly get an idea where the gains are found.  Again, I have stated repeatedly in this threat that I am NOT trying to be the quickest car at the quarter mile.  I am focusing on where a street engine does most of its driving.  Do the RALLY cars that used the SALZBURGHEAD run at 7500 to 9000 all day long or do they run more around 3500 to 5000 during a race?

I am using the head design in an entirely different application than Joel. I do not plan on taking my particular combination much over 5500, because with the cam I have, it won't go there anyway. I am focused on making all my power between 2000 and 5000 rpm.

John, chamber volume and surface area are two entirely different subjects. I will post later when I return home from work to give the example. I've been at this a long time too but 99.9% of my involvement in the hobby has been street driven cars that do most of their driving between 1000 rpms and 6000 rpms. 

Rick M

[Fasterbrit]

Rick, the Salzburg cars made peak power at 6k and were reved to 6,700 rpm on occasion.

John, I guess it's just proof that there are plenty of ways to skin the same cat. Good to see you post again, last I heard you had disappeared down the barrel of a giant zoom lens

Regards, Matt Keene

[rick m]

All Torque....

Here is another shot of the Salzburg head. Look at my head by comparison....your comment about the 6000 to 6700 rpms is making my point. My cam is designed to stay a little lower in the peak torque and power band.

Rick M [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[John Maher]

John, chamber volume and surface area are two entirely different subjects. I will post later when I return home from work to give the example.

Rick, we're not on the same page with regard to what constitutes surface area of the combustion chamber. I'm not including the squish area when I'm referring to the wedge chamber because when you run a tight deck, practically the entire air/fuel mixture is being 'squished' into the bath tub. With a deck of approx 1mm (.040"), the clearance in a running engine is getting close to zero, taking that whole area out of the equation. A good analogy is to picture the intake mixture in the chamber prior to ignition as a pile of dried up autumn leaves. With the tight deck squish/wedge design you've swept them all into a compact pile. In a hemi chamber they're spread out over a larger area, with the surface area of the chamber now consisting of the entire bore area. This is why you need more ignition advance on a single spark plug semi-hemi VW if you want to build maximum pressure on the piston at the optimum time.

If all the VW crowd can venture outside the VW world long enough to study what V8s have been doing........

I'm all for looking at alternative engine designs to see how the 'other guys' do things and wondering if any aspects of their technology can be transferred across to our VW aircooled engines. BUT... you have to take the whole design into consideration. For instance, in a true two valve per cylinder hemi motor the intake valve is canted as well as inclined. The advantage of adding cant is that the head of the intake valve moves away from the cylinder wall the further it's lifted off the seat. This greatly improves flow compared to the shrouded VW inline layout and is the major reason hemis make good horsepower (lots more leaves to burn). Accommodating the canted valve layout is the major factor in dictating the hemi chamber's design - not the other way round. It's no coincidence many hemi designs opted for twin spark plugs to counteract the larger surface area of the chambers. To be fair, the typical V8 hemi has a much larger bore diameter than the average performance VW, so the issue of extended flame travel in a semi-hemi VW chamber won't be as severe. My point is it's easy to look at a design that appears advantageous and assume the gains are the result of a single component. That is very rarely, if ever, the case. A successful R&D engine project is usually the result of numerous incremental changes to a whole variety of parts - which based on what you've written so far, sounds like a process you're already going through.

Sorry if I'm coming over too pernickity.... I'm enjoying the conversation! Looking forward to your upcoming reports.

[Joel Mohr]

Here's another example...My PUMA motor is 72 x 85.5,(1654) 35 x 32 ported and polished, hemi chambers, 44 IDFs, WEB 122 on 108 centers, 9 to 1, 3 step header,  makes 115 hp and 108 torque. Purrs like a kitten, and goes to 7,000

[Taylor]

Hey Rick,  is that 218°.050 number correct?

[rick m]

Taylor...NO.  You are the only one paying attention.  :-)  Just thought I would throw it out to see if anyone thought about it.  My cam is at spec'd out at 236 at .050.  The lift figure was correct.  Lobes are ground on 107 centers.  Good to see some people are thinking and paying attention. 

John M.....we have a lot of really schooled, knowledgeable people on this thread.  Great to see all the interaction.  Like All Torque stated....there are a lot of different ways to skin the cat.

Believe me, I understand the bathtub chamber, canted valves, etc. The ford 351 motor, which I believe I posted some shots of the chamber, had an open chamber design.  I totally agree that the larger area of a hemi style chamber would benefit from a twin plug motor.  My 3.6 Porsche twin plug 911 was an incredible motor. It made so much torque with the 911 hemi chamber and twin plug ignition that it would spin my 320/45x18 Continental Rear Radials from a rolling 30 mph in first gear.

I am playing around with the whole engine dynamic related to cam, carburetion, compression, ignition, etc. The Salzburg head, before someone else posted it, started making me think about some of this. Those motors, I believe, were set up close to 9 to 1 compression from what I have read about them. I would love to have the cam specs/valve timing on them.   It is interesting that they ran IDAs on relatively small motors, gutted the stock exhaust system and ran it.  I am interested in trying new combos taking into consideration a lot of different factors.

I will definitely post my results when I get the motor back together and even click some video to post once in the car, cam broke in and tuned.

Rick M

[Taylor]

Hey Rick,  I'm not trying to start a fire storm again, but I am wondering whether you really feel 236*@.050 is enough to offset your 8.8to1 CR?  I, obviously do not have the @.100, .200 and .300 numbers but that really seems low.  For all I know it could have a huge number under the curve.  I know that you plugged the intake closing numbers into the Keith Black calculator and it says 7.6to1 or whatever, but that doesn't take into account volumetric efficiency (VE).  Not getting into VE here but for posterity and the search engine a quick insight into it.  As RPM increases it is the ability of an engine to fill the cylinder to its mathematical potential and sometimes beyond that calculation.  What I am getting at is with your cylinder head port modifications and your choice of such a small cam are you not hindering your engines ability to breath? And furthermore aren't you worried that without the ability to breath the potential for detonation increases? Running duration is different than static duration and unless it is hydraulic it will be even smaller when running.

[rick m]

Taylor.....Hmmmmmmmm.....Did I hear you say hydraulic?  :-)

RM

[rick m]

More progress.  Short block together, sump on, new JBE oringed sump plate. This week pistons, heads and rocker assembly go on.

RM

[rick m]

Had my Sil Modesti aluminum motor breather powdercoated for easier maintenance, plus cleaned up the copper header exhaust gaskets in preparation for assembling the balance of the motor. Moving at a little faster pace now that it has cooled off.  Morning and evening temps are no longer the killer 105+ temps.  Nights and morning are now in the 70's which is car project weather.

RM [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
Joel. Such an engine oughta pull those #´s anyway. The 122 is an aggressive lump of steel.

WRT the Salzburg engine. I seem to remember that the reason for them using the gutted stock exhaust were regulation in the class or something like that. Next, I have recently been involved in a supercharger project where we also ended up using a gutted and modified stock muffler, mostly to keep stock appearance and to fool the enemy. Now, I´m NOT saying that we could not have pulled even higher #´s with a good  4-1 header. But the performance and torque numbers of this engine surprised even me. But on the other hand, the peak power on this particular engine is also at 5100 rpm. Quite some way from 6700 rpm.
I do remember being said that the reason to them staying at 9 - 1 CR was due to the fact that they could not keep head temps in check on longer stages if elevated more than that, partly due to them having to run the stockish muffler.

Going back to the cylinder head design. One of the things I was looking at when I was working  with the SH solution was how complete the burn was. And I was never able to get the ppm numbers down to what I thought was decent. They were always 15-20% higher than the same engine with a bathtub (!) good word   design. That is also what I see on the 616/356 engines. They have to run horrific high numbers in CO and ppm to run decent. It could be really interesting to find out how that looks in a more "modern"  SH chamber like Ricks or Joels version.

The use of twin spark ignition in such a chamber would change everything. I have noticed a couple of 616/356 engines that runs twin spark. And suddenly they can run super clean emissions and idle CO can be cut in half, O2 numbers at WOT can be reduced along with a temperature drop in the heads and finally the power increase for these semi quick engines were 6-10 hp. Also look at the Alfa Romeo 1,8 & 2,0 engines. They came out with T-spark back in ´89. Compared to the sgl. spark version they pulled 10 hp more AND equalled Euro 1 emissions (Cat 1 to others) The increase in hp comes (off course) only partly from the improovement in the burn, the reduction in pumping losses and also the fact that the engine now can run typically 1 digit higher CR with out detionation plays a significant role. Now, the Alfa cylinderheads have a ball/dome shaped chamber with the plug right in the middle of the top. The addition of an extra plug all the way towards the side of the chamber on the exhaust side, (on the 16V models just between the valves in the side of the chamber) and firing it 2 degrees early, that way pushing the the rest of the unburned mix to the center of the chamber for a more complete and efficient burn.
On a bathtub type of chamber we more or less know the advantages of TS due to some people around the World have taken the time and effort to seriusly and scientificly explore this. Limbach does it on type 1/WBX heads, but that is from a safety point of view first over efficiency. From a leighman´s point of view I would expect the efficiency and emission numbers to improove in about the same rate as with a conventional chamber, leaving only the cylinderhead temperature issue open. I really have no idea whether that would improove the same way too or not. Theoretically it should, due to the lesser pumping loss alone, but that is pure speculation.

T

[rick m]

Torben,

I will let you know on the CO numbers and emissions after mine is up and running. I will put it on the wheel dyno at Competition Engineering to test it out as we dial it in.  I too am in the hunt for lesser cylinder head temps living in the arid, hot Arizona desert.  We will see what the outcome is in weeks when I have it all back together.

Rick M

[rick m]

No pictures yet but long block together, rockers on, engine tin, exhaust and other bottom end pieces going together. Was hoping to have ready for VEGAS but too much going on at work, etc. Will post pix when in the car.

RM

[rick m]

Long block done. Rocker geometry done. Returned to using VW valve covers with the stock bales. Set them up with 1/2" tubing for my breather hoses. There are some opinions that the heads cool better with the stock valve covers vs. solid aluminum ones. I included a shot of the intake ports.  Will finish up the top end this weekend. Slow but steady progress.

Rick M

[Bad bug]

Can't wait to see the results of this.

[rick m]

Won't be long now. I have to button up the motor this weekend as I have a show to go to on the 3rd of November and the following couple weeks as well.  Will post shots as things start going back in the chop top.

Rick Mortensen

[rick m]

Getting close. New trans mounts in, new cross-shaft for throwout bearing, long block together, car cleaned up and ready to start bolting things together and put the motor in this week in preparation for BUG-O-RAMA weekend.

Rick M

[TexasTom]

Digging that pulley bolt ... Where'd ya find that one, Rick?
TxT

[rick m]

Have owned it for years Tom.  Getting close to start up day. Will shoot some video of the car when done and running. I ended up at 8.7 SC and 7.4 DC.  We'll see how things work with my heads and pump gas.

Rick M

[rick m]

The open chamber head motor lives. It is in the car, running and boy is it fun. It has a ton more bottom end power than it had with the K8 cam in it. All the power is from 1500 to 5500 where I do most my driving. Bottom end torque improved dramatically.  The final numbers on compression were closer to 9.0 static and 7.6 dynamic.  I am trying to figure out how to load some video I took and will post it later today.  The changes have made this a much more drivable and enjoyable motor.

Some of the things I did on the heads was reduce the spring pressure too. I toned it down from 165 on the seat to 140. Backed the pressure at total lift down on the nose from 320 to 280 as I will not be drag racing the motor and taking it over 5500 to 6000 rpms. All these type reductions will help on cam and valve train wear. I use Valvoline VR1 oil due to the ZDDP content along with a ZINC additive during the 500 mile break in period. Put over 120 miles in it yesterday with a few 100 mph road blasts.  Has incredible pull in 4th gear from 55 to 95. Surprised a couple V8s yesterday.

Current jetting in the IDAs is 60 idles, 165 mains and 190 air. I was able to back down the timing from the 34 degrees I was running with the old motor combo to 30 degrees.  The motors seems to love it. The tighter quench area has really livened the car up and there is NO DETONATION.

Will try and get my motor video up later today. The motor now recovers from doing short blasts and runs back at the 180 degrees I was looking for.  I drove it to CE today for their pre-Bugorama open house. Drove very smoothly, no flat spots or hesitations.

RM

RM

[rick m]

Here are a couple shots from the CE open house .Still working on the video upload.

[Fasterbrit]

Guten Worken mein Herr!

[rick m]

Thanks All Torque.  Now I just have to figure out how to get my wmv file small enough to post on Youtube or this site.

Rick M

[Frenchy Dehoux]

     Rick what happened yesterday did you forget to stop by the party and also I was expecting to see you at Bug O Rama today.

Frenchy

[rick m]

Frenchy,

Wasn't feeling too well yesterday after I left your place and decided I'd better return home. I ended up in bed with the Flu all day today.  Sorry I missed you guys later Sat night.  I stayed up half the night on Friday getting the chop running and paid for it the rest of the weekend.

RM

[rick m]

The Salzburg Combustion Chamber Motor Lives! I posted the short video I shot here for those following this thread too.  Will have more information later as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oCQkmowJBKs

Rick M

[Fasterbrit]

Hey Rick. I watched the vid and the motor sounds great! Good work dude
Car looks very cool, too!
Regards, Matt

[rick m]

Thanks Matt.  I guess those Salzburg head guys learned a lot of things that worked over 30+ years back!  I will be playing with the tune more but for now....it really runs nice! Very smooth powerband right where I was wanting it.  I guess all the reading I did on cam timing and head design wasn't so far off.  I studied a lot of V8 head designs and ran with the idea.

Rick M

[rick m]

Here is a little teaser until I can make a better video. This was done with my cell phone and me trying to hold it against the steering wheel while I ran through the gears.  Just for those watching, I have a close third but a stock .89 4th with a 3.88 r&p. Going into 4th gear you can hear the motor rpms pull down a little.  I will make a better video this weekend and post it.  For now, it let's you hear this open chamber head (Salzburg style) and how nice it sounds.  Relatively small cam with 1.45 rockers (FK65).

Rick M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mup_kkzvCkw