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Author Topic: Old Skool early headers - Pictures & information PLEASE :)  (Read 13240 times)
Lee.C
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« on: September 08, 2012, 21:41:57 pm »

Well as the title says really - I am planning a little "Pre-Cal"/Early Cal Look motor for next summer and I have some parts and ideas coming together but the "grey area" for me is the exhaust system  Undecided I really really want a proper original old skool header - I already have a friend/pin striper readfy to do the sign writing on my left rear fender  Wink

I am really looking for pictures of the old systems & mufflers - I would like to hear from some of our "old skool" friends on here about what they actually used etc but PICTURES are the most important thing  Grin

I look forward to seeing those White Glass Pack Mufflers soon  Wink
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 22:05:08 pm »

 Wink
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 22:06:54 pm »

 Wink
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 22:07:56 pm »

 Wink
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Lee.C
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2012, 22:16:44 pm »

Now this is the picture I was hoping for  Wink

Thanks for all those other pics fabs - it REALLY helps  Wink Grin
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2012, 22:30:53 pm »

glad to help you
 Wink
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Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 22:54:34 pm »

Find a 40hp header. Glass pack should have a 1 1/2" core, be 18" long and 3" diameter. Placement and tip(s) is up to you. This will give a great sound but not be obnoxiously loud.
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Lee.C
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2012, 23:04:01 pm »

Find a 40hp header. Glass pack should have a 1 1/2" core, be 18" long and 3" diameter. Placement and tip(s) is up to you. This will give a great sound but not be obnoxiously loud.

Thanks for the tip dude  Smiley
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hotrodsurplus
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2012, 23:43:33 pm »

There's no need to buy a used exhaust system if you don't want to. A bunch of those early systems are still in production here and there.

The Scat header above is a carbon copy of the Thunderbird system. Pertronix bought Thunderbird from founder Ermie Immerso and still produces that exact same exhaust with the bell tip at the end of the glass pack. The header with muffler is part number H4068.

I know for a fact that Ermie's large-flange headers were 1 1/2 because I had one 25 years ago and I have a basically NOS one hanging in my shop (painted white at that!). I also know that it kicks ass even with heater boxes. I had one of those systems with a chrome glasspack on a 1500 single port. That car really scooted. It sounded awesome, too.

Pertronix also still sells the zoom tube for that large-flange header. It's part number H4068. It's chrome, too.

Pertronix also bought Doug Thorley headers. It produces the Bugpipes as part number H4076 and H4076 (all chrome). I do not advise that system, though. It pairs cylinders 1&4 into one pipe and then 2&3 into the other. It kills torque.

All of those systems are correct for at least 1971 (I'm looking at a few in a magazine right now) if not earlier. And all of them are really affordable still.

Here is the Pertronix catalog. As far as I know the Pertronix exhaust parts are still made in the US. 
http://www.pertronix.com/catalogs/pdf/tbird/tbird_2008.pdf

c

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Nico86
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 23:58:04 pm »


Here is the Pertronix catalog. As far as I know the Pertronix exhaust parts are still made in the US.  
http://www.pertronix.com/catalogs/pdf/tbird/tbird_2008.pdf


This single quiet-pack muffler seems nice (parts #H4065 and #H3920).
Seems to be mounted with a belt on the header  Huh : this would mean it would be pushed under the rear fender and stick on the side of it perfectly. Instead of sticking under the rear bumper like many muffler you can find today.
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hotrodsurplus
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 00:12:45 am »

Quote
This single quiet-pack muffler seems nice (parts #H4065 and #H3920).

Those mufflers do tuck rather well. However, since we're talking pre-cal they would be inauthentic. I can't remember the exact date that the quiet pack came into vogue but it was some time later--maybe '74 or even '75 or '76. I have the story that 'introduces' them but I'd have to dig into the archives to find it. And I have a deadline to meet (and it was yesterday).

But yeah, those are good fitting muffler systems.  Personally, though, I would just cut any of them apart and weld them back together to fit perfectly. 

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Nico86
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 00:20:51 am »

Quote
This single quiet-pack muffler seems nice (parts #H4065 and #H3920).

Those mufflers do tuck rather well. However, since we're talking pre-cal they would be inauthentic. I can't remember the exact date that the quiet pack came into vogue but it was some time later--maybe '74 or even '75 or '76. I have the story that 'introduces' them but I'd have to dig into the archives to find it. And I have a deadline to meet (and it was yesterday).

But yeah, those are good fitting muffler systems.  Personally, though, I would just cut any of them apart and weld them back together to fit perfectly. 



They should consider selling a dual quiet-pack. The only thing I personally dislike is the chromed and flared tip. But I guess it could be easy to fix.
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Lee.C
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 00:47:26 am »

There's no need to buy a used exhaust system if you don't want to. A bunch of those early systems are still in production here and there.

The Scat header above is a carbon copy of the Thunderbird system. Pertronix bought Thunderbird from founder Ermie Immerso and still produces that exact same exhaust with the bell tip at the end of the glass pack. The header with muffler is part number H4068.

I know for a fact that Ermie's large-flange headers were 1 1/2 because I had one 25 years ago and I have a basically NOS one hanging in my shop (painted white at that!). I also know that it kicks ass even with heater boxes. I had one of those systems with a chrome glasspack on a 1500 single port. That car really scooted. It sounded awesome, too.

Pertronix also still sells the zoom tube for that large-flange header. It's part number H4068. It's chrome, too.

Pertronix also bought Doug Thorley headers. It produces the Bugpipes as part number H4076 and H4076 (all chrome). I do not advise that system, though. It pairs cylinders 1&4 into one pipe and then 2&3 into the other. It kills torque.

All of those systems are correct for at least 1971 (I'm looking at a few in a magazine right now) if not earlier. And all of them are really affordable still.

Here is the Pertronix catalog. As far as I know the Pertronix exhaust parts are still made in the US. 
http://www.pertronix.com/catalogs/pdf/tbird/tbird_2008.pdf

c



Cool thanks for the info dude  Smiley

More old pic's would be nice just for inspiration  Wink Grin
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hotrodsurplus
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 00:55:52 am »

Cool thanks for the info dude  Smiley

More old pic's would be nice just for inspiration  Wink Grin

My pleasure. If I wasn't so slammed then I could scan a few images from old HVWs. Maybe later on this week I can get a few done.

One thing is for sure: glass packs RULED in the late '60s and early '70s. Somewhere in the stash is even a hide-away system.


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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 03:14:17 am »

Here are some pictures of a system I pieced together...
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

The header is a typical four-into-one bought good used at an OCTO swap meet, not sure but I would say it's probably an Empi.

The glasspack is also an Empi, bought it used too at Bill and Steve's. The first owner's wife made him take it back straight away because she hated the noise! Grin
I don't care for the flared tip though, I would rather it had a tip similar to an S&S.
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2012, 05:02:22 am »

Phil's headers, circa 1968. Dual boom-megaphones, super loud, back fires, and shot flames (but only on Sunday mornings near church services)... La Habra residents hated this car!
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hotrodsurplus
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2012, 06:21:13 am »

Phil's headers, circa 1968. Dual boom-megaphones, super loud, back fires, and shot flames (but only on Sunday mornings near church services)... La Habra residents hated this car!

That car is sooooo boss!
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Chris Shelton. Professional liar.
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2012, 20:10:05 pm »

Here's my muffler that I knocked up using a Cherry Bomb and an old stinger....

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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 02:32:24 am »

That car is sooooo boss!

Carol's not grungy, she's bitchin'.  Tongue
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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 08:18:18 am »

Carol's not grungy, she's bitchin'.  Tongue

¿que?

The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it and B, sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic.

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Chris Shelton. Professional liar.
Dyno-Don
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 19:22:40 pm »

There's no need to buy a used exhaust system if you don't want to. A bunch of those early systems are still in production here and there.

The Scat header above is a carbon copy of the Thunderbird system. Pertronix bought Thunderbird from founder Ermie Immerso and still produces that exact same exhaust with the bell tip at the end of the glass pack. The header with muffler is part number H4068.

I know for a fact that Ermie's large-flange headers were 1 1/2 because I had one 25 years ago and I have a basically NOS one hanging in my shop (painted white at that!). I also know that it kicks ass even with heater boxes. I had one of those systems with a chrome glasspack on a 1500 single port. That car really scooted. It sounded awesome, too.

Pertronix also still sells the zoom tube for that large-flange header. It's part number H4068. It's chrome, too.

Pertronix also bought Doug Thorley headers. It produces the Bugpipes as part number H4076 and H4076 (all chrome). I do not advise that system, though. It pairs cylinders 1&4 into one pipe and then 2&3 into the other. It kills torque.

All of those systems are correct for at least 1971 (I'm looking at a few in a magazine right now) if not earlier. And all of them are really affordable still.

Here is the Pertronix catalog. As far as I know the Pertronix exhaust parts are still made in the US. 

I work for PerTronix as the Director of R&D for the Exhaust Division. We bought Ermie Immerso Enterprises (Thunderbird Headers) a bit over 12 years ago when Ermie decided to retire. He passed on in 2004. We never really pushed the Thunderbird line after acquisition to the retail market. As Ermie had done, we do a lot of this product as Private Label. We have recently started to discontinue most of the Thunderbird Line and are selling a majority of it on Ebay. Although we still do quite a bit of Private label.
  The H4068 that was mentioned above is a 1 1/2" primary with a 2" inlet Glaspack in black, but we are sold out of them. We do have a few left in Ceramic Coated
The Zoom Tube mentioned is actually part #H3903 and we do have some of those left.

As for Doug Thorley Headers - we did NOT buy that company. It gets a little confusing, so bear with me. Doug's original company was called Headers by Doug and then he started using Doug's Headers. Eventually it became Doug Thorley Headers, but that was about the time that he got divorced and his wife Betty got the company. Although he did do some R&D and assist her with the business over the years (and Jerry Jardine did some design work for her as well) Doug had his own company called Doug's Headers. When Betty passed away, here partner sold the company to Summit Industries (NOT Summit Racing) in Corona CA who also owned Jardine (Since sold to SuperTrapp). They never did any VW stuff as Thorley that i am aware of and certainly don't now. When Doug decided to retire about 8 years ago, We bought The Original Doug's Headers. The H4076 and H4077 listed above (Bugpipes) are NOT the Doug version, but Ermie had that same design as well and so those are a Thunderbird product built in the Thunderbird fixtures - the Doug's ones were destroyed long ago, before we bought the company. But either way, those have been discontinued as well. 

Just thought I'd fill in the blanks here  Grin In the long run what will happen to the Thunderbird name and product line? Hard to say. It may go away or we may resurrect it. But with so much VW stuff being produced off shore these days and a smaller market than the heyday of the 1970's it is difficult to compete and make a reasonable profit. As they say - stay tuned.
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Dyno-Don
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2012, 19:24:57 pm »

Just for fun, here is what the Thunderbird 1 3/8" header and single Quiet Muffler look like today on my 66 Bug. This is the H4065 that Nico was talking about. And it is a hose clamp that goes through the tab on the muffler and then around the #2 tube to support it. The early (1970's) version had a HUGE hose clamp that went around the entire muffler and the header tube.
And Chris, I am pretty sure the Quiet Packs first came out in 1975, I was working at Auto Haus then and I remember when we first got them, so my fuzzy memory says '75




Guess I should have cleaned the chrome tip, but i drove through some rain on the weekend.  Grin
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 19:33:15 pm by Dyno-Don » Logged
Flow
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 19:32:08 pm »

You could also make your own home made "early header", like my friend's one, a cheap Kadron mixed with a Stinger, white painted and it's done  Grin

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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2012, 19:34:21 pm »

Does anyone know WHO Anchor Muffler was and where they were located?
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speedwell
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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2012, 20:05:54 pm »

Does anyone know WHO Anchor Muffler was and where they were located?
here  Grin Grin
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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2012, 20:10:23 pm »

Does anyone know WHO Anchor Muffler was and where they were located?
here  Grin Grin
Wasn't sure if that was the same place, as I asked in there a while back if they used to do VW headers and no one seemed to know anything. I understand it has changed hands over the years though.
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« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2012, 20:17:37 pm »

Does anyone know WHO Anchor Muffler was and where they were located?

Anchor Muffler was and still is located at 750 N. Anaheim Blvd. (formerly Los Angeles St.)  The owners were Pat Stutsman (really a nice guy) and his partner Jack ?? (really a grumpy guy).

I actually dealt with Pat prior to him moving to that location and opening Anchor Muffler.  He was previously located on Lincoln just east of Euclid on the north side of the street.  Pat installed my first pair of "bell" tips and later at Anchor did many mods to my first set of Fourtuned headers.

In later years he did exhaust work on several of my Chryslers.  I think he retired as he was getting up in years and the last time I stopped by he was dealing with the Rice Rockets and their Boom Boom exhaust.  I could tell he wasn't into that.  His daughter use to work at McCoy Mills Ford on Commonwealth in Fullerton.  I believe she worked the parts counter.

Back in the day EVERYBODY went to Anchor and always got a fair deal......................
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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2012, 20:25:27 pm »

Thanks John, it looks like Pat sold to a guy named Carlos in the past few years. Like I posted above, the guy working there knew nothing of the VW history
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hotrodsurplus
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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2012, 20:34:56 pm »

Thanks for the clarification, Don. So you work with Don Lindfors? Super guy he is.

My memory is equally fuzzy about the exact year of the QP but the more I think about it the more I think your '75 recollection is correct. I'm going away for a day or two but I'll dig into the HVWs binders again and pin down what month those appeared in adverts.

I remember the story that Ron Fleming did about installing duals on a car--I think that may have been '76. Was that the issue with the back of the Manx buggy with the dual quiets on it? Wasn't that the same buggy that Jim Tschaan (Kymco and later EMPI) owned for a brief period? I do know that he had a blistering fast yellow buggy that he spun in some intersection--maybe Harbor and Victoria.


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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2012, 20:37:18 pm »

Thanks John, it looks like Pat sold to a guy named Carlos in the past few years. Like I posted above, the guy working there knew nothing of the VW history

That part of Anaheim has changed dramatically over the years and is mostly Hespanic.  Back in the '60's about the only thing "Mexican" in the area was the Bean Hut located a block north on the east (same side as Anchor).  It was a great place to go in your ride, see your friends and eat some great food.  Today it is a dental office serving the Hespanic folks.  http://www.octhen.com/2010/02/bean-hut-of-anaheim.html

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHY HISTORY NEEDS TO BE DOCUMENTED.  Carlos should learn his company's history.

Back in the day Pat built the first set of duals (dune buggy style) headers I'd ever seen on a sedan.  They were on Brian Rennie's black '65 and it sounded like a popcorn machine.................  
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