Lowering front end by removing leaves. How was it done?

[AirCooledCurtis]

Back in the day, people lowered the fronts of their Beetles by removing torsion leaves in the beam.  I'd like to take the guess work out, and ask how many were removed top and bottom?  What are the pros and cons to doing it this way versus welding in adjusters or adding drop spindles?  Does anything else have to be modified when removing the leaves?

[TexasTom]

Start with the cons ...
The left over springs have to do all the work of the original springpack and will wear out sooner.
The only pro may be that it's cheaper on the front side.
Installing adjusters IS a lot of work, but you will be MUCH happier in the long run, if spindles just aren't enough for ya.

On K&L beams, we would cut the upper and lower spring in one or both beams, depending on the desired stance. But, you have to weld or somehow attach the end and center pieces of the springs to keep the pack tight in the center and arms! Tricky!
On ball joint beams we would simply remaove all of the small springs in one or both beams, again depenping on desired stance.

Don't forget! Removing springs lowers the car but also lowers the amount of available weight to carry! That included things like passengers and fuel ...

Hope this helps.
TxT

[OC1967vw]

agreed-car ran like a truck which led to gbe introducing the avus adjusters and sway away their adjuster system

[Zach Gomulka]

I believe there's an article in the Feb 75 HotVW's with Gene Berg himself doing the work.

[TexasTom]

Not Everyone has a 38 year old magazine!

[Fastbrit]

I believe there's an article in the Feb 75 HotVW's with Gene Berg himself doing the work.

I lowered my first Beetle (a king- and link-pin model) in 1975 using that method after reading the feature! 'Stick-welded' the ends of the leaves together, used a hacksaw to cut out the small leaves and then crossed my fingers when I let the car down off the jack... The next one I did was a ball-joint and, as TxT says, I just pulled all the small leaves. It was great, because you didn't even have to disassemble anything – just use the end of a screwdriver against the small leaves and tap them all the way through with a small hammer. If it didn't work, you could refit the leaves easily, too. The alternative was Scat's infamous Select-A-Drop, which was a whole different ballgame... 

[AirCooledCurtis]

Ok, I wasn't exactly thinking of lowering it the old way .  My car is an ex-hoodride and a 4" narrowed beam with select-a-drops is too much, and when the beam is out, I will completely redo the set up with a stock beam, and drop spindles.  Unless someone can convince me otherwise.

[Cheesepanzer]

From what I remember, when I removed the small leaves from the top set from my '70 beetle it brought the nose down a couple of inches.  I wasn't going for a nose dive, just a slight rake.  Rode fine and didn't wear stuff out.

 

[65bug]

I installed a new beam on my car. Took the original off and installed a 2 inch narrowed(for disk brakes) with a select-a-drop in the new beam. I added dropped spindles for a better ride. Now it's low, and I cannot raise it up anymore. I like it, but I can only lower it more now.
    If and when I do it over again, I will go dropped spindles and that's it. I will leave the front end height there where she sits with dropped spindles! Yep, I can slam it more now, but it's plenty low enough.
     I added drilled/slotted disk brakes and love em!

[OC1967vw]

TxT is absolutely correct.

With respect to ball joint front ends, pulling the half springs (out of both tubes) reduces the suspension"spring". While it does lower the front (minimal),it places substantial strain on the shocks since the suspension "spring" taken away is not picked up any where else. With ball joint front ends, it requires the removal of the brake drum/spindle assembly on both sides and having the front end aligned after reassembly. Using dropped spindles without spring removal maintains suspension "spring" travel and comfort but the front end is not adjustable as some would like. "Adjustability" means reinstalling stock spindles and a front end realignment again.
Removing the half springs (from the spring pack again from both top and bottom tubes) as a way to lower the front end was discounted many years ago (as indicated in the magazine article). Look at car profiles done over the last 15-20 years and search for those having a ball joint front end that is lowered simply by removal of spring bars. Talk to them. With winter weather damage (snow especially) to roads, it just tore front ends up.

have at it. good luck to you

[Rick Meredith]

I can't believe that no one mentioned swapping the shocks when lowering a ball joint car.

When I lowered my '67 in the '70s, I first pulled all the split springs out of both beams and put on shocks from an early '60s Dodge Dart.

A few years later, I pulled one of the large springs out of each tube and brazed up the stacks to keep the ends and center the same size.

I used shocks from an Opel... I wanna say Kadett but I'm not 100% sure.

Both shocks swaps require swapping the metal sleeves out of the VW shocks into the replacements. The ID of the sleeves are different that the OD of the mounting studs.
This was easy enough to do with a makeshift press using a bench vise and a variety of sockets. First you would press the sleeves out of the VW shocks and then use those sleeves to push out the sleeves of the shorter shocks.

[Jon]

If and when I do it over again, I will go dropped spindles and that's it. I will leave the front end height there where she sits with dropped spindles! Yep, I can slam it more now, but it's plenty low enough.

Why do you say it's low enough? Because of how it looks, or is it because it keeps bottoming out or something?

[65bug]

JHU,
     I have had no problems with it bottoming out. I just like the looks of it where it's at. I run 145's on the fronts. If I ever need to raise it up, I'm screwed and the front end has to come off. I suppose I could just take the dropped spindles off, put the stockers back on, then use the adjusters to lower the front. However, the ride will not be as nice.
     

[AirCooledCurtis]

So what would you recommend?  stock spindles and avis adjusters, of stock adjusters and 2 inch drop spindles (not sure, the ones I have may be 2.5")

[Zach Gomulka]

So what would you recommend?  stock spindles and avis adjusters, of stock adjusters and 2 inch drop spindles (not sure, the ones I have may be 2.5")

Depends on the wheels you use. If they have a lot of offset, you'll have to narrow the beam and you might as well add a pair of adjusters while you're there- they can be installed at any angle so you can have your desired range of adjustment. Drop spindles aren't needed but they improve the lowered ride quality dramatically.

[65bug]

Curtis,
        Dropped spindles do NOT effect the ride quality at all. Nor do they effect the travel length! That's what you really want. You want a quality ride. I would say dropped spindles and that's it. Do you like my cars front end look? That's 2.5 inch dropped spindles with a 2 inch narrowed beam(to account for the disk brake kits 1" offset) and 145 tires. The adjusters on my Cb Performance beam are useless unless I want to lower the car even more.....

[pupjoint]

those days when i had no money and dropped spindles were only for the wealthy,  i removed the springs and car rode like crap on the motorway.


65 Bug, what offset are your fuchs?

i am going to change back to stock beam with dropped spindles, stock disc brakes and flat4 4.5 fuchs with 36mm offset and 145 tyres.  i am hoping i can get away without rubbing the fenders with this setup. car is a 66 Bug.

currently on BRMs, drum brakes, dropped spindles , 4 inch beam. i hated the ride with narrowed beam.

[65bug]

Pupjoint,
     I bought these from CIP1 years ago. They are MXS I think is the brand. From Europe I know that. They are 5.5 but I do not recall the offset. Whatever standard is?. They work, and look good to me. My dropped spindles are Cb's. I had no issues with them at all. I built up the front end myself and added a tucked in 3/4 sway bar. Car rides really good and handles well for a swing axle!
     I'm still working with the rear end to see how high I can raise it before it really negatively effects handling. I lowered it pretty low to try it and did not like the ride at all. I am pretty close to where I want it. I may try and raise the rear up one more inch to see how it does.
     I think your Flat 4's will look even better then mine. The cast finish on mine are not perfect, but their good. My rears are American Eagle 15x7.
     

[hotrodsurplus]

I can't believe that no one mentioned swapping the shocks when lowering a ball joint car.

Please don't take this the wrong way but it's because it's not necessary. Once you eliminate the snubbers in the stock damper design the ball joints will bind right about the time the damper collapses fully. A shorter damper will not increase compression travel for that reason but it will radically decrease rebound travel.

I discovered this by accident in the late '80s. I was working on a friend's '66 and he didn't have money for the 'trick' dropped dampers. We were in a pinch (he had to go to school the next day) so we just took out the dampers (which had broken away from the upper mount anyway) and threw it all back together. It rode beautifully. Eventually he could afford the 'trick' short dampers, at which point it rode really stiff and had no droop.

When I built my own '66 I cycled the suspension without springs and noticed the absolute lack of bind with stock dampers once the snubbers have been removed. So that's what I've done on BJ cars ever since. When I went to Kymco in the '90s we really pushed the stock dampers for lowered cars. To us the only thing the shorter dampers did was made cars ride poorly. Again, the ball joints themselves are the limiting factor, not the damper length.

Also consider this. The Opel and Dart weigh more than the front of a beetle. The springs account for a lot of the compression damping so they're not that much stiffer in compression as a beetle damper. But the heavier cars' dampers have greater rebound damping to control the greater force that the stronger springs develop when compressed. Excessive rebound damping leads to a really choppy ride. Also those designs likely have a different motion ratio than a BJ beetle making them even less viable.

I'm not saying the shorter dampers didn't work; you and many others have run them. However, they just do not work as well as stock ones do when the jounce snubbers have been removed. And to clarify, the stock dampers that we used had the separate screw-on upper mount and removable snubber. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a replacement design that mounted the snubber inside a water shield. That would be harder to modify and may/may not work properly.

[Rick Meredith]

I can't believe that no one mentioned swapping the shocks when lowering a ball joint car.

Please don't take this the wrong way but it's because it's not necessary. Once you eliminate the snubbers in the stock damper design the ball joints will bind right about the time the damper collapses fully. A shorter damper will not increase compression travel for that reason but it will radically decrease rebound travel.

I discovered this by accident in the late '80s. I was working on a friend's '66 and he didn't have money for the 'trick' dropped dampers. We were in a pinch (he had to go to school the next day) so we just took out the dampers (which had broken away from the upper mount anyway) and threw it all back together. It rode beautifully. Eventually he could afford the 'trick' short dampers, at which point it rode really stiff and had no droop.

When I built my own '66 I cycled the suspension without springs and noticed the absolute lack of bind with stock dampers once the snubbers have been removed. So that's what I've done on BJ cars ever since. When I went to Kymco in the '90s we really pushed the stock dampers for lowered cars. To us the only thing the shorter dampers did was made cars ride poorly. Again, the ball joints themselves are the limiting factor, not the damper length.

Also consider this. The Opel and Dart weigh more than the front of a beetle. The springs account for a lot of the compression damping so they're not that much stiffer in compression as a beetle damper. But the heavier cars' dampers have greater rebound damping to control the greater force that the stronger springs develop when compressed. Excessive rebound damping leads to a really choppy ride. Also those designs likely have a different motion ratio than a BJ beetle making them even less viable.

I'm not saying the shorter dampers didn't work; you and many others have run them. However, they just do not work as well as stock ones do when the jounce snubbers have been removed. And to clarify, the stock dampers that we used had the separate screw-on upper mount and removable snubber. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a replacement design that mounted the snubber inside a water shield. That would be harder to modify and may/may not work properly.

Never thought about removing the snubber. I"m sure that would work well.

[cedric]

Here is the pic out Htvws

[stealth67vw]

I have an Puma adjustable beam in my 67 but since the top adjuster is stuck in the raised position I yanked all my small torsions. it's been this way for decades.