European records, should we have some?

[Jon]

It doesent matter much if you have stock lenght torsion tubes or even torsion bars. What matters is the distance from the pivot point and up to the center line for the crank and the distance from the same pivot to the flywheel . If these measurements are as stock I think it should pass as pan car.

[Typ3racing]

The 4 "classes" I stated are easy enough

1 : Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

All must be VW style flat four engine in the rear. [ just wether to state "aircooled" or not seems to be the only stumbling block right now ]

Maybe a fifth class for those watercooled cars,
no matter if wbx, inline or V8-engines, or the subie powered cars.

When looking a the Skinne-bug, obviosly the only Volkswagen part is the engine block.

But many of the race cars with pauter or autocraft engines have less than this..............

[Jon]

The heads are unwelded stock replacement castings (OEM)

[BeetleBug]

When looking a the Skinne-bug, obviosly the only Volkswagen part is the engine block.

Balljoint front beam and mostly original metal pan minus the forks

[richie]

It doesent matter much if you have stock lenght torsion tubes or even torsion bars. What matters is the distance from the pivot point and up to the center line for the crank and the distance from the same pivot to the flywheel . If these measurements are as stock I think it should pass as pan car.

But how do you control/check this? the idea is we have to trust peoples entries or it would become to difficult to monitor, its easy to see a stock suspension car, we all know what it looks like, and what should be their and what shouldn't

If you use the crank center line as a reference point what happens on raised trans cars?

If stock suspension pan cars are to be a category then it has to be stock suspension components, If I had it my way then it would be "stock to the car" so a swingaxle car would have to remain so etc

cheers Richie

[richie]

The 4 "classes" I stated are easy enough

1 : Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

All must be VW style flat four engine in the rear. [ just wether to state "aircooled" or not seems to be the only stumbling block right now ]

Maybe a fifth class for those watercooled cars,
no matter if wbx, inline or V8-engines, or the subie powered cars.

Maybe, if that's really what people want, but to me it goes away from the concept of what its about, and then do you split that into 2 classes as well, for stock pan cars and another for everything else?

cheers Richie

 

[richie]

For what it’s worth I think it would be worth having a bigger range of records so that they appeal to a wider audience and encourage greater participation.
There are all sorts of people running all sorts of combinations out there and it would be fun to have a kind of matrix where you could look to see what times people have posted with what combinations in what cars.
Needless to say this could become quite large matrix with all the variables but, if for example if you had a 2276cc N/A street car which I suspect is a relatively common combination. It would be fun to see who has the fastest one and if you thought of adding nitrus to it then you could look to the next column and see who is the fastest with gas, next column for turbo etc. Then you might have columns for a 2276cc race car N/A, nitrus, turbo etc.
Perhaps you could have engine size (common sizes or bands perhaps) and power adders down the y axis and car types across the x axis with varying degrees of modification from stock ish street cars to a full cassis race cars.
Trond might not thank me for suggesting it as I suspect it’s a lot more work (that said he’s got plenty of time to think about it whilst sat on the beach), but I think it would be an interesting read and would help involve and perhaps inspire more people to make their cars quicker.
It could also be like a real world indicator as to how fast a particular car might / should go if they are looking at particular combination.
I’m sure there could be plenty of squabbling over the actual categories, but it would be good to make it inclusive rather than exclusive.
Peter

Pete I know what you are getting at, and it would be cool to have some lists to be able to compare our own "car" to another similar spec[ although god knows were yours would fit in ]  but that is something completely different to "European records"


The best way I can sum up what you are getting at about a bigger range of records for more participation is: that I don't have children, so I don't have his modern idea that no one should lose like it seems is the current thing in schools now   We should strive to be the best we can and if we beat someone along the way then celebrate it

I know, I know not very pc is it!!!!!!!!

cheers Grumpy old git

[Andy Sykes]

Is  it possible to go on the % of real VW

I.e pan, body, suspension, transmission , suspension, engine case and heads whether water cooled flat four or air cooled

The rest is all fair game work out a point system.so a you could a class sthat could race against each other but then you could win on handicap points at the end of the year so it could be about seat and devolpment time and not all bout what you have spent  on your car maybe ?

Cheers Andy

[MeXX]

Dear Richie

Definitely a great idea.

The 4 classes are perfect; maybe a 5 for unlimited (watercooled)

1: Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

And I think there have to be rules, but they have to be simple (it makes no sens if to many racers are ruled out).
It's necessary that the rules have to be written down. We all have to thrust that ever racer obseves this rules.
As there will be endless discusions about this rules I think simple is better.

MeXX

[MeXX]

I personally I think they should be aircooled vw flat 4 style rear engine only but am happy to hear input from everyone on this.

As per every sanctioning body I can think of any record would have to be backed up at the same meeting within 1%, if not by 1% then the faster time backs up the slower time.

cheers Richie

Dear Richie

U R right, there should be the need of a second run within 1% although we all now how hard this is most of the time.
Maybe there should a second list for all that faster but unofficial records ..

In memorial Mickey Thompson fastest man on earth September 9 ,1960 406.60 mph at Bonneville.
(no other 400+ mph run this year).

MeXX

[richie]

So do the amount of competitive watercooled cars[ got to be realistic, if its going to have a record there has to be cars racing ] out there racing justify a Class record of there own, I can only think of 2 that are currently racing that would fit this category that have any chance to set the record

and if so is it for just VW based engines? or some hybrid creature? not that it makes much difference as there will still only be 3 cars I can think of that really would have a chance to set the record.

cheers Richie

[richie]

And I think there have to be rules, but they have to be simple (it makes no sens if to many racers are ruled out).
It's necessary that the rules have to be written down. We all have to thrust that ever racer obseves this rules.
As there will be endless discusions about this rules I think simple is better.

MeXX

Totally agree

[richie]

Dear Richie

Maybe there should a second list for all that faster but unofficial records ..


MeXX

I think the list Trond already does on here covers this well enough, and should continue to do so, all he needs is more input from racers to keep updating there times and progress

cheers Richie

[nicolas]

i think this is somehow heading towards the american system... there is a class for every car being built.
Aside from what categories you want to make, this is indeed a good idea. We should be able to see who's doing what and also who did what in the past.
My idea would be a list with a number of variables like: engine size, turbo, NA, Nitro, oldspeed equiped, pan, chassis, slicks, full interior, what not. and then just list all the cars in a spreadsheet and when you are looking for one car or presumable engine combo you can look for it. it will be hard to classify all cars in a few classes as european laws (street and track) seem to differ quite a lot.

example: who has the fastest fastback?

i can give in one variable and that is the type of car: i.e. fastback. do a search and all cars listed are fastbacks. no account taken what engine, turbo or not.

example two: i give in pan based beetle, NA, cc's 2000 to 2400, street tires, full interior.

this would be a narrower search.

 

[richie]

Well if such records existed Thomas Kemp would certainly hold the N/A pan record at the moment, if I heard correct he ran 10.12 earlier and he just went 10.1589@130.27 mph, Congrats Thomas, very impressive achievement

cheers Richie

[richie]

And given the back up with in 1% requirement Udo would have the N/A chassis car record with the 9.9641@133.6 he just ran backed up with any of those 10.00s he has run already this weekend,

Well done Udo

cheers Richie

[Russell]

come on lets just get the list up and worry about the details latter....

[Udo]

And given the back up with in 1% requirement Udo would have the N/A chassis car record with the 9.9641@133.6 he just ran backed up with any of those 10.00s he has run already this weekend,

Well done Udo

cheers Richie

That was a nice weekend - made some 10,00 passes and could not find the right setup on the car. except at the last race aginst Thomas where i missed 4th gear

Udo

[Peter Shattock]

I think that is the first N/A 9 second run in the UK by an AC VW, unless some one knows otherwise.

I was lucky enough to see the UK'S first ever 9 when Luke and Peter were running Moody back in the early 90's and I got a nice view of this one too, from the staging area as I was in the next pair to run.

A bit of UK VW drag racing history was made this weekend me thinks.

Thomas brought Udo back to the ground with a bump in the final though!

Both cars were running low 10 second passes all weekend and not forgetting Thomas's car is a street car too!

Top work from both of you.

Looks like us guys in the UK have some catching up to do!

Peter

And given the back up with in 1% requirement Udo would have the N/A chassis car record with the 9.9641@133.6 he just ran backed up with any of those 10.00s he has run already this weekend,

Well done Udo

cheers Richie

[russ fellows]

How about cars that were totally air cooled say full pauter engine for instance and still run a air cooled fan but also welded a jacket round three fins and pump water round it . For no other reason than it is a true street car and this allows the use of it on the road
Cheers russ

[richie]

Hi Russ

I appreciate your input , so do you consider your car aircooled or watercooled now?

I personally think if watercooling the engine is allowed then you have to include the WBX engines as well, it would be very difficult to separate them fairly
and as we are not currently looking at a "street car class" how you cool it getting down the track doesn't matter, controlling what is and what isn't a street car would be impossible as everyone has there own ideas[ and every European country seems to have different legistlation on street legality] and everyones ideas on what is and what isn't a street car are all different

cheers Richie

[dangerous]

Well if such records existed Thomas Kemp would certainly hold the N/A pan record at the moment, if I heard correct he ran 10.12 earlier and he just went 10.1589@130.27 mph, Congrats Thomas, very impressive achievement

cheers Richie

This is extremely impressive!
I think everyone around the world would be impressed with this,
not just because it is a big type 4,
but primarily because it is a very heavy, NA pan car.

Would love to know some recent specifications!

[Thomas Kemp]

It was a perfekt Weekend on Bug Jam

and I have come a small step closer to the 9

I wanted to protect my Gearbox for Hockenheim I went with a security Setup

when I come to the VW Action I hope that the new CSP Headers is finished and I will try to beat the time


Thanks for the great interresse on my Car

Best Regards Thomas

[dangerous]

Well done Thomas!
Do you still run the beetle transmission?
Can you share some specifications of your car like
mass in kg and engine?
Thanks, Dave.

[modnrod]

Can you share some specifications of your car like
mass in kg and engine?
Thanks, Dave.

+1, yes please! What type of heads do you use?
VERY impressive!

[Thomas Kemp]

I use a type 1 Transmission Rancho pro shift

J&G Floater Clutch with RLR Black Magic Disk


Engine a Type 4 2900 ccm

86mm Scat crank
5,5 caningham Rods
Raptor Cam
914 VW Heads  51.5 Intakt and 40 Ex Valves

[dangerous]

Even more impressive Thomas, with the original casting heads! 

[Thomas Kemp]

New Slow Motion Video on my Web Site

www.kemp-racing.de

[johandryselius]

Dear Richie

Definitely a great idea.

The 4 classes are perfect; maybe a 5 for unlimited (watercooled)

1: Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

And I think there have to be rules, but they have to be simple (it makes no sens if to many racers are ruled out).
It's necessary that the rules have to be written down. We all have to thrust that ever racer obseves this rules.
As there will be endless discusions about this rules I think simple is better.

MeXX

I also think this is great - any decisions taken?

Johan

[Russell]

Come on how long does this take..... what about the rules, seems like some people are sitting on the fence......