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Best dualsprings?
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Topic: Best dualsprings? (Read 12785 times)
carlito421
Full Member
Posts: 224
Best dualsprings?
«
on:
December 14, 2011, 20:52:25 pm »
Hi everyone,
I've a 1776cc with OG crankshaft, Engles 130, 044 heads and one of my dualsprings (Bugpack) is broken.
What's the best mark of dualsprings can I buy? If you have a link it's better.
Thanks.
Carlito.
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Fasteddie63
Full Member
Posts: 121
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #1 on:
December 15, 2011, 00:49:19 am »
CB 650 Works Well,The K-Motion 750 But You Have To Do A Little Machine WorkTo Open The Pockets .020 But They Work Too Set Of 16 Goes For 129.00 From Jegs
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TexasTom
Hero Member
Posts: 1518
12.58@106, 7.89@89 Texas Motorplex 10/18/09
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #2 on:
December 15, 2011, 00:57:39 am »
I'd go with the Oteva 75 springs available from JPM in Sweden ... if you want the Best.
Stock ratio rockers?
http://www.jpmotorsports.se/products
TxT
«
Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 01:02:06 am by TexasTom
»
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carlito421
Full Member
Posts: 224
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #3 on:
December 15, 2011, 01:48:16 am »
Thanks dudes.
I hesitated between CB and Berg...
How about Berg dual springs?
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ibg
Full Member
Posts: 140
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #4 on:
December 15, 2011, 11:02:44 am »
GB 273A dual springs shimmed should work well if you have 1.1 rockers, if you a using more lift i second the CB 650. Lots of revs, maybe berg tripples.
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rick m
Hero Member
Posts: 1296
Driving Hot VWs for 44 Years Strong!
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #5 on:
December 18, 2011, 21:28:50 pm »
Why not go to the progressive spring rate of a BEEHIVE spring? This is what the V8 guys are doing. Some VW guys have already run them.
RM
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Rick Mortensen
Driving Hot VWs since 1970
lawrence
Hero Member
Posts: 732
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #6 on:
December 18, 2011, 21:50:52 pm »
I am also searching for a set of duals and have heard positive comments on the bugpack 4046 and CB 650. My heads are CB 044 with stainless steel valves, chromoly locks and retainers. The standard setup.
Does anyone have some experiences, good or bad, that they care to share? Ease of installation, durability, material quality, extra parts required?
Rick, I have heard about some VW guys using the beehive spring. Do you know if this was in a street or drag application? I am sure you're aware that VW cam lobe profiles are different than V8 and my concern is street usage. Racers probably change springs every season so longevity is not such an issue.
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"Happiness is a Hot VW!"
ibg
Full Member
Posts: 140
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #7 on:
December 19, 2011, 02:11:22 am »
All need shims to protect head and check/set lift before coil bind. 4046 needed deburring, Berg and CB 650 better finished. Shimmed to 70 thou 4046 lost pressure sooner than Berg. CB can lift more and has more pressure on the nose and heel but I haven't run long enough to see if much pressure has been lost. Cam and rockers will probably dictate which to use, these experiences are for 86B with 1.45's
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Dougy Dee
Full Member
Posts: 155
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #8 on:
December 19, 2011, 14:20:44 pm »
Did you run stock length valves with the 650's or .200 longer?
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lawrence
Hero Member
Posts: 732
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #9 on:
December 19, 2011, 18:59:55 pm »
Quote from: ibg on December 19, 2011, 02:11:22 am
All need shims to protect head and check/set lift before coil bind. 4046 needed deburring, Berg and CB 650 better finished. Shimmed to 70 thou 4046 lost pressure sooner than Berg. CB can lift more and has more pressure on the nose and heel but I haven't run long enough to see if much pressure has been lost. Cam and rockers will probably dictate which to use, these experiences are for 86B with 1.45's
Thanks for the info, ibg. I think I will try out the 650s. I have an 86b and CB 1.4 rockers, so my results will be similar. Is it necessary to buy new spring retainers and valve locks or can I re-use the stuff I have if it does not show wear? Why are shims necessary to protect the head? My 044 came setup from CB and I do not recall them having shims, just a slight "pocket" where the spring sits.
I guess I should just call CB...
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ibg
Full Member
Posts: 140
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #10 on:
December 19, 2011, 22:09:57 pm »
Dougydee, stock length valves with CB 650's.
Laurence, check retainer for fit in new springs but should be OK, CB should know! The springs are hard steel, and the head is alloy and there are turning forces on the springs as they compress, so hardened shims under the valve springs is just good engine building practice. If they are not there, put them in, your heads will thank you. One thin one will do the trick but it would be good to set up your new springs with maybe 100 thou to coil bind at full lift. (as measured on your engine)
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So.Cal.Life
Full Member
Posts: 207
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #11 on:
December 20, 2011, 02:18:40 am »
Quote from: rick m on December 18, 2011, 21:28:50 pm
Why not go to the progressive spring rate of a BEEHIVE spring? This is what the V8 guys are doing. Some VW guys have already run them.
.
Rick, I have heard about some VW guys using the beehive spring. Do you know if this was in a street or drag application? I am sure you're aware that VW cam lobe profiles are different than V8 and my concern is street usage. Racers probably change springs every season so longevity is not such an issue.
[From what I understand Joel Mohr ( Mohr Performance) has lots of experience with beehive springs and 7mm valve stems," VW applications" on both street and strip , and has a working relationship with his spring supplier and his cam grinder of coarse. So far I see no drawbacks, I went for quite a ride in Joel's street car some time ago, and was very impressed. 7000rpm+ and no hickups , except for the fan belt getting torn up... good stuff ! KG
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Jon
Administrator
Hero Member
Posts: 3214
12,3@174km/t at Gardermoen 2008
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #12 on:
December 20, 2011, 07:31:12 am »
What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics?
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Fasterbrit
Hero Member
Posts: 1009
OFF#23 - The Fastest Outlaw in the West!
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #13 on:
December 20, 2011, 11:14:18 am »
Quote from: JHU on December 20, 2011, 07:31:12 am
What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics?
The quickest way to ruin a valve spring is to float a valve. They do not like to be hammered and lose pressure extremely quickly. Float a valve even just for a brief period and you can almost lose a third to a half of the spring's pressure... Forever! Worst case scenario the spring will break
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Erlend / bug66
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 958
SCC Event
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #14 on:
December 20, 2011, 11:47:44 am »
Im going to run 044 Wedgeports 42/37,5 with VW650 springs (CB650?)
Web86C (0,585" lift) w/1,4
160lbs at 1,540" installed, 420lbs at 0,630" lift
Does this match up?
Sorry if it's off topic
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Jesse/DVK
Hero Member
Posts: 817
'64 2176cc
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #15 on:
December 20, 2011, 12:01:23 pm »
The .585 lift is with 1.5 rockers so you should have .546 of lift is everything is correct.
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Der Vollgas Kreuzers
Jon
Administrator
Hero Member
Posts: 3214
12,3@174km/t at Gardermoen 2008
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #16 on:
December 20, 2011, 12:08:57 pm »
Quote from: All Torque on December 20, 2011, 11:14:18 am
Quote from: JHU on December 20, 2011, 07:31:12 am
What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics?
The quickest way to ruin a valve spring is to float a valve. They do not like to be hammered and lose pressure extremely quickly. Float a valve even just for a brief period and you can almost lose a third to a half of the spring's pressure... Forever! Worst case scenario the spring will break
So if you break springs, you either need stiffer ones or a better designed cam?
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Erlend / bug66
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 958
SCC Event
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #17 on:
December 20, 2011, 12:17:52 pm »
Quote from: Jesse/DVK on December 20, 2011, 12:01:23 pm
The .585 lift is with 1.5 rockers so you should have .546 of lift is everything is correct.
where did you find that out? I sent Webcam a mail, and they said alle web cams are meassured with 1,4?
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The '67:
10.626 @ 132mph, SCC 2016
10.407 @ 134mph, SCC 2017
10.221 @ 135mph, SCC 2018
The '59:
Not yet..
Jesse/DVK
Hero Member
Posts: 817
'64 2176cc
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #18 on:
December 20, 2011, 13:08:10 pm »
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-1-Camshaft-Grind-86C-1-4-or-1-5-p/00-112.htm
And got one myself.
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Der Vollgas Kreuzers
Erlend / bug66
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 958
SCC Event
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #19 on:
December 20, 2011, 13:24:55 pm »
good to know. webcam sent me this:
Erlend, Cams are GENERALLY advertised using 1.4 rockers.
I'll live with 1,4 for now
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The '67:
10.626 @ 132mph, SCC 2016
10.407 @ 134mph, SCC 2017
10.221 @ 135mph, SCC 2018
The '59:
Not yet..
Fasterbrit
Hero Member
Posts: 1009
OFF#23 - The Fastest Outlaw in the West!
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #20 on:
December 20, 2011, 17:52:07 pm »
Quote from: JHU on December 20, 2011, 12:08:57 pm
So if you break springs, you either need stiffer ones or a better designed cam?
The better designed cam is by far the best option...
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Udo
Hero Member
Posts: 2077
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #21 on:
December 20, 2011, 18:44:02 pm »
Quote from: JHU on December 20, 2011, 07:31:12 am
What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics?
The bad thing for a spring is the valve lift, all more than 12 mm is not good for any spring. so you can not get valve springs that never breaks with lift in the 14 or more lift range
Udo
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www.Udobeckertuning.de
TexasTom
Hero Member
Posts: 1518
12.58@106, 7.89@89 Texas Motorplex 10/18/09
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #22 on:
December 20, 2011, 19:30:14 pm »
Quote from: Udo on December 20, 2011, 18:44:02 pm
Quote from: JHU on December 20, 2011, 07:31:12 am
What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics?
The bad thing for a spring is the valve lift, all more than 12 mm is not good for any spring. so you can not get valve springs that never breaks with lift in the 14 or more lift range
Udo
I'll count myself lucky then ... my combination (86C with Berg 1.45s) makes just over .610"(15.5mm). Have yet to break a Berg dual spring (stock diameter)!
Now that I say that, I know what will happen ...
They do get replaced on a specific interval ... !
TxT
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Udo
Hero Member
Posts: 2077
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #23 on:
December 20, 2011, 21:05:19 pm »
Tom
This is what i recommend to my customer and you are on the save side
Everyone knows that in germany and sweden you can get the best steel. i asked at a german company which produces valve springs for the industrie some years ago. They told me there is no steel that holds up the valve lift we have .
some springs work longer than others that is for shure ...
Udo
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www.Udobeckertuning.de
TexasTom
Hero Member
Posts: 1518
12.58@106, 7.89@89 Texas Motorplex 10/18/09
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #24 on:
December 21, 2011, 01:35:43 am »
Udo!
Wise words.
Yes, I think (hope) perhaps the key to my success so far is the relentless replacement schedule and consistent pretesting and setup.
Will be using JPM springs in the very near future, but completely different setup
Thanks!
TxT
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Fiatdude
Hero Member
Posts: 1823
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #25 on:
December 21, 2011, 04:29:19 am »
Quote from: bug66 on December 20, 2011, 11:47:44 am
Im going to run 044 Wedgeports 42/37,5 with VW650 springs (CB650?)
Web86C (0,585" lift) w/1,4
160lbs at 1,540" installed, 420lbs at 0,630" lift
Does this match up?
Sorry if it's off topic
With a 86c, angle ports 48/38's in SS -- I'm running the K800's -- I have the pauter 1.5's in my engine -- I went for overkill and will not rev the engine that high 7K tops -- a 4" bore engine is very expensive thing to replace -- -- that said, I'm probably gonna switch to PSI springs and Ti valves at the next tear down or look for something compatable coming out of a NASCAR combo
«
Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 04:34:31 am by Fiatdude
»
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bilboa2
Full Member
Posts: 240
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #26 on:
December 21, 2011, 07:01:23 am »
TOM , UDO, thanks for the good input ... I guess i am hoping that the berg springs on my street car with .629 lift, fk46 are made of that famous berg swedish steel theory/story as I am only putting about 100 miles a year on
....no sign of vavle float/fatigue, never been on rev limiter , 7300 rpm... how much longer
..? ...next time apart going to beehive like other motor. thanks , bill
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Jon
Administrator
Hero Member
Posts: 3214
12,3@174km/t at Gardermoen 2008
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #27 on:
December 21, 2011, 08:30:33 am »
Quote from: Udo on December 20, 2011, 18:44:02 pm
more than 12 mm is not good for any spring. so you can not get valve springs that never breaks with lift in the 14 or more lift range
I guess you mean no more than 12mm length on a typical type1 length spring? Will longer springs (and valves) be able to handle more that 12mm?
Valued input for sure, need to look at this.
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viNce
Jr. Member
Posts: 86
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #28 on:
December 21, 2011, 12:36:25 pm »
Quote from: rick m on December 18, 2011, 21:28:50 pm
Why not go to the progressive spring rate of a BEEHIVE spring? This is what the V8 guys are doing. Some VW guys have already run them.
RM
I'll run beehives with my next heads, will see how they held up?
Will be Steve Tims stage 2 heads, with match ported bugpack #1038 manifolds supplied with .200" longer valves, on my actual short block with a dual lobe FK43 intake / FK7 exhaust cam, will be using smith brother alu pushrods, ti retainers and maybe 57g tool steel lifters if I have enough €€€... also 48 drlas...
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Udo
Hero Member
Posts: 2077
Re: Best dualsprings?
«
Reply #29 on:
December 21, 2011, 13:05:01 pm »
Quote from: bilboa2 on December 21, 2011, 07:01:23 am
TOM , UDO, thanks for the good input ... I guess i am hoping that the berg springs on my street car with .629 lift, fk46 are made of that famous berg swedish steel theory/story as I am only putting about 100 miles a year on
....no sign of vavle float/fatigue, never been on rev limiter , 7300 rpm... how much longer
..? ...next time apart going to beehive like other motor. thanks , bill
I think you should be fine with this. We had good results with the black coated Berg springs . They last very long.
JHU
I mean the traveling of the spring -valve (12mm), because of this i use 140 kg double springs and install them with a long installed height , so it does not run close to coil bind . also 120 kg single springs can be installed with a longer height
Udo
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