Lickity Split

[hotstreetvw]

Pistons/cylinders and cam arrived this week.  I mocked up and measured deck height yesterday.  Need a fair amount trimmed from the cylinders.  They will get sent back to Shawn to trim down.

I installed the cam and started to dial it in.  Does anyone have profile data on the FK-89?  Detailed angle vs lift data?  I plotted this cam every .010 up to .100, then every .020 after that.  I would like to compare it against a FK-89 in excel.

Right now I am at IVO 31.5 BTDC, IVC 70.0 ABDC, 281.5 @ .050" with a 109 intake lobe center line.  This is with the "zero" washer.  I've read that 104-106 is the recommended intake lobe center line.   Any thoughts?

[hotstreetvw]

4 degree washer put me at 105.75 intake lobe center line.  Sounds about right to me

[hotstreetvw]

Back to the track tonight after the rewire.  Two passes, same result, on the trailer it goes.  MSD Digital 6 Plus = suck

[grumpybug]

I'm glad you're updating this thread. It's been a great watch.

[hotstreetvw]

Thanks, I've enjoyed sharing the build.

I went to the track today, 

The good... Ran a 13.45 @ 98.88, with a 1.766 60'. PB ET and 60'.
The bad... I thought battery voltage was the cause of the MSD cutting out.  I was wrong.  Still hitting a wall.
The ugly... And oh it's ugly... Broken ring and pinion.  I've got no one to blame but myself.  I knew better than to run the stage 2 with black magic, but I did it anyway.  I had it and didn't want to wait on a stage 1 to put the car together.  The clutch is like a on/off switch.  It caused a red light on my second pass as I was trying to preload the trans.  The car lunged forward.  My third pass, which was during eliminations, I didn't want to red light, so I went light on the preload and kaboom!!

Car is already apart.  I hope I can get it fixed this week.  My mother is in town Friday and I was planning on taking her to the track to watch the races.

Any recommendations on a MSD?  I was thinking 7 due to being analog, it it would need to be the 7AL3 due to have retard for NOS later on.

And some more in the weeks,  I picked up a parts car that has near correct firewall and luggage tray.  It also was sitting on a 53 pan, which I am going to build out with the narrowed torsion, but no trams raise.  Then redo part of my cage to save a bunch of weight and make it a little more streetable.

[henk]

What does your ignition do?
Does it just shut off like you switch off the ignition key?
And does it fires up again after some time?
I have the same probleme with mine (mine is a 6T).
And with mine it seems like a bad magnetic pick up in the distributor.
You can check that if it is still good or not.

Henk!!!

[Zach Gomulka]

I've known so many people with MSD issues! Are there no alternatives?

[modnrod]

i've used 4 Crane Hi-6 units, and anecdotally at least I haven't heard of one going poop or having intermittent issues (maybe they have, just I haven't heard of them), been running them for quite a while now when I need a big spark and a few extra features.

[hotstreetvw]

Ignition cuts out above 5500-5800 depending on the pass.  The shift light flashes, which made me believe the box was turning off and on.  That led me down the low battery voltage route.  Wasn't it.

I just measured the pickup, 557 ohms, so between the 500-700 ohms for a "good" pickup.

I think it's the box.  I've read these digital 6 plus are hit and miss.

Crane is a option, but I've read issues as well.  MSD has the lion share of the market, so the naturally have more failures.

What does your ignition do?
Does it just shut off like you switch off the ignition key?
And does it fires up again after some time?
I have the same probleme with mine (mine is a 6T).
And with mine it seems like a bad magnetic pick up in the distributor.
You can check that if it is still good or not.

Henk!!!

[hotstreetvw]

Video of it crapping all over itself.  You can hear it through first gear and before every gear shift.

https://youtu.be/PLK3XDaUQos

13.45 pass

https://youtu.be/YT5r_cCSTCI

[Chip]

Time to buy a Megasquirt. Ditch the distributer all together, run the box ignition only for now. It'll make swapping to efi that much easier. It'll also handle nitrous control/retard, 2 step, max rev, and total control of the timing map.

[hotstreetvw]

It is looking more and more like the route to go.  I fear all MSD products at this point.

My reluctance has been to put a laptop in the car and just make it EASY, but this MSD experience has been anything but.

What setup do you recommend?  I was looking at the ms3 w/ expansion, build it myself so it is easy to repair.  (No surface mount). Direct fire LS coils in wasted until I get my hands on a cam sensor.

Way back in my megasquirt days I fried the ignition optoisolator that watches the trigger signal.  I had an old direct TV box and was able to pull one out and put the car back together before I could get one delivered.

Time to buy a Megasquirt. Ditch the distributer all together, run the box ignition only for now. It'll make swapping to efi that much easier. It'll also handle nitrous control/retard, 2 step, max rev, and total control of the timing map.

[Chip]

It all just depends on what you want to do. Personally I am an MS3 fan, but MS2 is very much up to the task. MS3 definitely gets more developer attention and has better features for us racer types. The 3.0 board is great. I built one yesterday  , and Saturday...very popular and very upgradable.

Give me a list of things you want the car to be able to do tomorrow and I'll be able to give a better idea of what you need.

[hotstreetvw]

Make a clean pass

I downloaded tuner studio and looked through all the options.  If I was to do ignition, I would want four coil drivers without a external module and it looks like that is a expansion feature.  Obviously vacuum advance is a positive for streetability and light throttle performance.  Nitrous retards, 2 step.  Is really the only requirements.

"Clean" engine bay, limited clutter.  != 4 coils.  With the plan to add a firewall and luggage tray area like factory, I was going to move the coil inside the car and use a through firewall deal for the coil wire.  Not quite as clean unless I was to do coil on plug.

The positives are Complete spark control, FI potential, E85 easy with FI, turbo (long way out if ever on the 4" engine, heads are fly cut to 45cc). Negatives are wiring is questionable, I'm not a huge fan of the Db37s, laptop required, initial costs,

I wouldn't say overwhelming, I've done it before, it's just more work.  Lazy me, yes.  But I'm certainly entertaining the idea, and it's honestly the reason I haven't pulled the trigger on another msd box.

[BeetleBug]

Wasted spark = 1 good coil instead of 4 and plenty enough spark for your application.

Again thank you for updating your project thread here on The Lounge!

-BB-

[richie]

Wasted spark = 1 good coil instead of 4 and plenty enough spark for your application.

Again thank you for updating your project thread here on The Lounge!

-BB-

Totally agree Its all I have on old cabrio and it fires it no problem with a really old DTA ecu and no ignition amplifier on methanol and 30lbs of boost

Did you talk to MSD at all about the problems Will?

cheers Richie

[richie]

(long way out if ever on the 4" engine, heads are fly cut to 45cc).

 

When you order pistons order them with custom dish, 20cc + is possible, then just get a little chamber work done to gain some cc there as well, Johannes did mine that way

cheers Richie

[Chip]

Seen this?
http://www.thedubshop.net/#!products/c17av
It'll do what you want. Onboard o2 is pretty awesome too. Wasted spark is easy to do also. Supposedly this can control nitrous if you don't want sequential. Or you can do a table switch type arrangement when on the gas where it just switches to a completely new spark map when the (separate)nitrous is activated.

[Chip]

On the other hand MS3 and MS3-Pro can datalog without the laptop installed...that was my main reason for going MS3 back in 2010, the boost control options too...

[hotstreetvw]

Richie, I did talk to MSD but they basically said if the box fires at low RPM, there could be nothing wrong with it.   Ahh right.  And the lady that does the RMAs was out sick so call back in a few days.  And don't believe all the issues people have on the Internet, they are lies, because MSD boxes never fail it's all poor installation...haha.

Chip, I checked out Mario's ECU.  I think I would rather go down the MS3X route.  I printed out the scematics and started sketching up a wiring diagram to fit my car, it doesn't look so bad with ignition only.  I've been doing a little homework on coils.  It looks like the ls2 coils could be hidden fairly easy, with short plug leads.  The ign-1a coils also look good and what I've read is they can put out a serious spark if you crank up the dwell.  I'll get the ball rolling soon.

Cylinders arrived today, cut to legth.  It looks like stock length head studs will be perfect.  Next step is to re-check deck heights, mark Pistons to be trimmed (balance deck), and punch valve centers for pockets. Only studs and pushrods left!

[Chip]

Sounds well thought out. I always like to recommend the ms3 variants, simply because it is their best and newest. But they can be a bit busier than the average ms install. I would recommend NOT going with the relay board. Doesn't suit a 3x install very well.
Let me know if I can help in any way. I had a 3x setup before I had the Pro. It was a nice unit, I swapped mainly for the better AMP connectors.

[hotstreetvw]

Been a while since my last update.  I shipped the Digital 6 Plus back to Jegs and replaced it with a 6AL-2, ignition issues are resolved.  I raced at the Import Tuner Mayhem a couple weeks ago in Denver, the car ran well with a best of 13.46@100.39mph.    That pass was with a 1.9 short time, which was due to wheel spin I guess from a better ignition.  I've had a 1.77 short before, so there is some improvements to be had.

This weekend we traveled to Dallas for a family event, I took the opportunity to bring the car and do a little Friday night drags near sea level.  This was at a 1/8 mile track (600' altitude), best time was a 8.07@84.22mph.  This converts to a 12.86 using the Wallace calculators, so the car was running good.  It's at least 4 tents faster than my best 1/8 mile run at altitude.  I did manage a 1.721 short time, fastest so far for the car.  I also managed to hang the wheels for the first time, what a blast.

[hotstreetvw]

[Chip]

Glad to hear you are getting things sorted out!

[hotstreetvw]

Thanks Chip.  I was seriously considering the MS3 but couldn't bring myself to spend the extra cash. I've spent a small fortune on the 4" engine already and didn't want to spend anything else that wouldn't  contribute to it being finished.  It worked out well with Jegs refunding for the 6+, where MSD would not.

I've been working on piston valve interference.  I hope to have it done in the next week or so and have the Pistons sent for valve reliefs.  It's taken a little longer than I thought.

Glad to hear you are getting things sorted out!

[hotstreetvw]

Working on plumbing and I would appreciate some advice.

I will be running a Jaycee bypass pump cover dumping back to the sump, on a 30mm pump.  I will also use the Jaycee oil control system filter head as a replacement to the case pressure relief system, dumping back to the sump .  I have a Mocal thermostat, and a oil cooler.  

Two configurations
#1, pump cover to filter head IN, bypass to the sump, filter head OUT to the thermo stat, return from the thermostat back to the case.  Thermostat connected to cooler as usual.

+ bypass oil does not get cooled, only the oil fed to the bearings is cooled.  Draws less power, could maybe run a 26mm pump.

#2, pump cover to thermostat, return from thermostat to filter head IN, bypass to the sump, filter head OUT to return to the case.

+all oil is cooled, even the oil returning through the bypass.  Maybe this helps keep engine temps down?  There will be a pressure drop across the cooler and lines.  HP = Flow Rate x Pressure, so it requires power to move that oil and cool it.

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[richie]

I wouldn't put un filtered oil into cooler, I would go with option one and I think you should be ok with 26mm pump on a N/A engine, another option I have seen is run only bypass oil through cooler, this is really only useful when running cooler at front of car as you get a real pressure drop running from pump to front and back to case so cooling pressure relief oil doesn't affect engine oil pressure

cheers Richie

[hotstreetvw]

Thanks Richie, I will go that route.  26mm pump as well.

Does anyone see any objections to running a shorter oil filter?

This is the go-to PH8A/HP1 etc
HP-3001 http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=HP-3001
but I am considering this filter
HP-2004 http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=HP-2004

it is the equivalent filter, but shorter by 1.7".  It would give me a little additional clearance to the exhaust so its not picking up more heat and it will allow me to run an exhaust wrap.  I don't see the size as a problem, this engine isn't going 3000+ miles between oil changes, so the filtration capacity is not going to be tested.  I can't see the engine having flow requirements to require the long filter either.

[hotstreetvw]

Update

Sled tins modified, oil drains from the cylinder heads to the sump.


Bracket built for oil cooler lines.  Plan is for quick disconnects up to the thermostat.  (easy to pull the engine)


Engine tin modified/fitted.  Includes 36hp front tin to fit the firewall once it is replaced on the body.


Pistons notched.  I pulled all the tin yesterday and check valve clearance on #1, no issues.  (w/ Pauter 1.4s, which measure 1.44).  Waiting on JPM 1.45s 5 stud.


I cc'd the pockets and measured about .2cc on the exhaust and .8cc on the intakes.  I was expecting more volume.  SO, I found this calculator to verify my results.
https://rechneronline.de/pi/cylindrical-wedge.php

Inputs
Radius of cylinder = 2.5cm (50mm diameter pocket)
Height = .2413cm (.095" deep, 2.413mm, however you look at it)
Angle = 80 degrees  (now this one is tricky, if the pocket breaks out of the piston at the center mark, that's 90 degrees, if before the center mark, like in my situation it is less than 90 degrees, I ASSUMED 80 degrees, it might be a little more or a little less, but close enough for a confirmation.  If the entire valve is sunk into the pocket, it would be 180 degrees.  Hope this makes sense, it took a while to figure out their description).

Output = .774cc  ...intake only  measurement ~ calculation, that is the results I was looking for

notes: keep your units the same, cm*cm*cm = cc.  if you use millimeters, be sure to convert to CCs.  Its just easier to use cm though.

Total pocket volume per piston is approx. 1cc.  That puts my compression at 12.8:1 for this fire breather.

In conclusion, EVERYTHING has taken longer than expected.  The JPM rockers are in customs, once they get here I can double check valve clearance (which I've calculated to a 1.5 rocker and will still be safe), so no expected issues there.  Then measure for pushrods.  I'm planning on a set of Manton stage 5, double taper, 3/8" to 7/16 to 3/8", thick wall; springs at full lift will be 720lbs.

Rotating assembly going to balancing this week.  

Rockers - > Pushrods - >  Going Fast

[hotstreetvw]

Couple minor setbacks.
*Pistons needed to be notched a little deeper for piece of mind
*Pushrods hitting Jaycee tubes.  Order Pauter tubes.  Wait.  Pushrods hitting Pauter tubes.  Weld heads, send to Shawn to have the pushrod tube hole moved based on actual geometry.  Shawn cranked these things out for me, huge thanks to him.
*Everything looks good, build it.
*Rev6 clutch disc needed some massaging.  The broaching wasn't complete near the "snout", a little time with a triangle file and they fit nicely.
*White rhino case needed some serious clearance to get the dual setup to fit.
*Engine turned over without pushrods or rockers, build oil pressure, YES.  Fight to install pushrods and rockers with the roller cam.  HARD, FRUSTRATING.  Do this on the bench and hope to NEVER do it in the car again.
*Fire it up, glass ball stuck open, fuel EVERYWHERE.  Fix glass ball.  Run for a few minutes.  Idle too low, engine dies.  Restart, backfire through carb, car catches fire from previous fuel spill.  Fire extinguisher empty, wife used it a few weeks ago on the BBQ grill, had to use the hose.
* Engine completely disassembled within a few hours, parts sitting in diesel.  Everything is clean, ready for reassembly.
*75% wiring repaired, still need to fix the tail light wiring harness that was melted due to the fire.  Nothing with the exception of paint and wiring was damaged.  There was black soot on the carb and intake, but it all wiped off.  Just left over fuel being burned off.
*paint work, uh yeah, its not pretty, but it wasn't to begin with.  Maybe it will kick me in the ass and get the ball rolling on making this a true looker.

Positives - it sounded badass, before it caught on fire
Lesson learned - if there is a fuel leak, clean it up, hose it down, dilute that shit.  Make sure the fire extinguisher isn't' empty.  Already a nice big new one in the garage.  New one under the sink for the wife.  Get more sleep.  Stop trying to make unreasonable deadlines.  Have fun, less stress.