Back to back exhaust comparisons? JPM/CSP vs CSP?

[Jim Ratto]

Interested in comparison in db, horsepower/torque and engine temperature between CSP Python 1-3/4" vs CSP/JPM Wasp Stage 1 with muffler.
And how is availability of Wasp exhaust in USA?
Thanks,

Jim Ratto

[WPS]

Hi Jim,

I've not heard the Wasp with a muffler yet but I know the idea was to not restrict performance over the stinger/megaphone in any way.

When Johannes tested the Wasp over the Python he made 13-15hp!!...as I remember....in his 2276 street car.

He was so suprised himself that he immediately put the Python back on to check his Dyno wasn't lying!!

I've used a few Wasps now mainly on all out race cars and have been really pleased but maybe contact Peter at CSP direct if you want any technical details.....in my experience he's always happy to talk 'exhaust'!! 

Really good products and a great bunch of guys!!

Good luck.

Ian

[Jim Ratto]

Hi Jim,

I've not heard the Wasp with a muffler yet but I know the idea was to not restrict performance over the stinger/megaphone in any way.

When Johannes tested the Wasp over the Python he made 13-15hp!!...as I remember....in his 2276 street car.

He was so suprised himself that he immediately put the Python back on to check his Dyno wasn't lying!!

I've used a few Wasps now mainly on all out race cars and have been really pleased but maybe contact Peter at CSP direct if you want any technical details.....in my experience he's always happy to talk 'exhaust'!! 

Really good products and a great bunch of guys!!

Good luck.

Ian

I was curious which exhaust the horsepower gain claims were made against. Thanks.

[neil68]

Jim,

CIP1.com is a CSP dealer in North America and lists the Wasp headers, mufflers & stingers on their website.

http://www2.cip1.com/SearchResults.asp?search=Wasp&Submit=

[Jim Ratto]

Jim,

CIP1.com is a CSP dealer in North America and lists the Wasp headers, mufflers & stingers on their website.

http://www2.cip1.com/SearchResults.asp?search=Wasp&Submit=

Thank you!

[Torben Alstrup]

Ian is spot on. BUT, it is also worth noticing that the Python is relatively  "better" if the engine produces a lot of hp below approx 6500. (Peaking low, if one can call it that) The Wasp is almost unbeatable if we are talking hi reving engines, and can assist in releasing an incredible amount of mid to upper end power.

T

[Jim Ratto]

Ian is spot on. BUT, it is also worth noticing that the Python is relatively  "better" if the engine produces a lot of hp below approx 6500. (Peaking low, if one can call it that) The Wasp is almost unbeatable if we are talking hi reving engines, and can assist in releasing an incredible amount of mid to upper end power.

T

Thanks Torben

I talked to Peter earlier this week, and after he and Johannes discussed my engine spec/use of car, they suggested the Python, over the Wasp, in order to keep engine response strong where it is most needed. It was explained to me that the Wasp system truly is solely designed for racing applications and very high rpm, and that if used for street, milder application (like my USA pump gas motor) it would hinder low and mid rpm power.
I ran my engine specs through the exhaust formula I have access to, and it came up with "optimum" as 30.73" long primaries, 1.68" diam, and 2.27" muffler pipe diam.
So I've ordered a Python 42mm which was suggested by Peter and Johannes.

Jim

[Jim Ratto]

installed

[Esky]

Well how do you like it? How does it compare to what you had before? Looks like a nice system.

[peejke]

got a phyton myself a couple of years ago. Fits great, sounds great and runs great...

[RichardinNZ]

Very stealth; are your exhaust cut outs already filled?  Looks great.

Be very interesting to hear what you find regarding volume/sound and also any impact on how hot your car runs.

Many thanks
regards
Richard

[Jim Ratto]

Very stealth; are your exhaust cut outs already filled?  Looks great.

Be very interesting to hear what you find regarding volume/sound and also any impact on how hot your car runs.

Many thanks
regards
Richard

Thanks

I drove the car on Saturday over 185 miles, and about 4.5 hr, on several backroads in Ventura and Santa Barbara counties, to get a good impression of how the car responded. The powerband is definitely cammier now, not that the lower end has softened, it just comes on much, much harder at 36-3800 rpm. Even at small throttle opening, as you approach 3600, you can feel the torque come in and the car want to accelerate. On hilly, twisty 2 lane roads, it's fun now to really put your foot down and have the power surge in. The old exhaust was obviously not tuned for my engine, as I suspected for a long time, while I researched what I would eventually change to.
As far as engine temperature, coming home, I found an empty lane on 101S, in ambient 70-75F and ran for 15-20 min at 45-4600 rpm (86-87mph), including a climb up Conejo Grade, the oil temperature remained under 180F. Driving along back roads, keeping revs between 3000-6500 the oil also stayed under 180F so I will need to probably blank off my air duct to external cooler. I will wait until after the hot summer months. Once home, and shut off, I used a infrared heat gun and zapped base of manifolds just to see if 1/2 would be hotter than 3/4,  so 12 min after exiting freeway and shut down, now in 77-80F ambient, 3/4 manifold showed 184F where it bolts to head and 1/2 side showed 152F.
The reduction in engine temperature tells me that this exhaust is tuned correctly when compared to old exhaust, pulling more fresh mixture into cylinders on overlap.
Overall, I am very happy with the change. The sound level is much more civil and easier to live with now, over the old A1 Magnaflow.

[Zach Gomulka]

Great result!

Exactly which A1 system were you running previously? Sidewinder or Low Down? What size?

[Jim Ratto]

Great result!

Exactly which A1 system were you running previously? Sidewinder or Low Down? What size?

I am not sure which header it was. 1-3/4" primaries, but 2 & 4 pipes were set back farther than Phoenix I used to run. The collector was small flange, like the typical 1-5/8 or 1-1/2". The mufflers I ran were Magnaflow (loud as all hell) and Super Turbo (mellower, but car was difficult to jet, tended to run rich at steady state mid rpm, where most street driving is done).
I think the combination of (probably) too large of primary pipe, and too small collector exit, created a situation opposite of what a good "stepped" header is supposed to do. During overlap, I think instead of exhaust energy helping to evacuate next cylinder, the restriction at the collector was negating what a good header should do. The collector of the Python appears to have much more volume over my old system. I have not measured both, so that statement is based on eyeballing both.

[Zach Gomulka]

Thank you for the detailed response, exactly what I wanted.

[Jim Ratto]

 you're welcome

[RichardinNZ]

Thanks from me too...my stroker is a little way off yet but good to have some real life information to think about.  Sounds like a nice drive you had at the weekend!

[K-Roc]

Nice write up Jim,  For reference What's your current displacement, cam and heads? ( Valve size ) and gearing / tire size if you don't mind.

I was wanting to experiment with a Stage 1 Wasp and Muffler, but that's an Expensive experiment.

Cheers!

[Jim Ratto]

Nice write up Jim,  For reference What's your current displacement, cam and heads? ( Valve size ) and gearing / tire size if you don't mind.

I was wanting to experiment with a Stage 1 Wasp and Muffler, but that's an Expensive experiment.

Cheers!

Thanks,

94 x 78, 86C Web, exhaust closes 68 ATDC, Clyde Berg 44mm x 37.5 (similar to Berg 871 heads, but done on old 044 casting), 0.89 4th / 4.375:1, 25.5" tire
Venturi 40mm, F4 emulsion tubes, Crane HI6R fired by 010 with one spring or Brazil 009, 34' total.

[brian e]

Did you get yours from Cip1? 

If you dont mind, how much was the total to your door? 

Brian

[Jim Ratto]

Did you get yours from Cip1? 

If you dont mind, how much was the total to your door? 

Brian

Yes, nice doing business with them. Despite them being in the final stages of moving the store, they got it out quickly, with all kinds of follow through from their staff. It got hung up in customs up in Seattle, and they called UPS to help move it along. I'll be sure to send them some more business.

It was around $1100 for all of it, system plus matching forward pipes for 1 & 3. I really like the 8M nuts they shipped with it, sure beats fighting with weirdo 11 or 12mm crap I had on it. The hanger which secures muffler is nicely designed (looks to be Rabbit muffler hanger, could probably even upgrade it to a MBZ chain one to outlast the car). Like I said, I'm happy with the change, all around. Maybe someday I'll even set it up with their heat exchangers.

[javabug]

. Maybe someday I'll even set it up with their heat exchangers.

Start saving and do this sooner than later. For the way you use your car, having heat will change your world. I drove my Baja Bug all winter (kept it out of the salt) with a properly-functioning heater. Coming home from work at 1:00 AM at temps around 0°F and I never thought twice about it.

[Jim Ratto]

. Maybe someday I'll even set it up with their heat exchangers.

Start saving and do this sooner than later. For the way you use your car, having heat will change your world. I drove my Baja Bug all winter (kept it out of the salt) with a properly-functioning heater. Coming home from work at 1:00 AM at temps around 0°F and I never thought twice about it.

good point man. But, to be honest, it's rare, very rare that I'm actually cold in my car. There's been times, but a good parka and gloves and jeans/good socks have always been enough. Window defrosting though, that's another story. Even when I lived in Quincy CA (winter temps often 20F or below), and had the car up there, it never had heat. I was more worried about oil coming to temp than I was with me keeping warm. That's a good topic for another post sometime soon.... summer vs winter oiling systems/cooling

[javabug]

it's rare, very rare that I'm actually cold in my car.

Heating is a whole other thread, too. I think butt warmers (heaters) in those fancy new Recaros would probably take care of most needs for your climate. I'd even like to try them here.

And for defrosting, I find it hard to believe there isn't a small but efficient electric heater out there nowadays that could be plumbed in to the ducting for that. Never understood why new car manufacturers wouldn't have something similar for instant heat until the cooling system gets up to temp. Maybe they do, I just don't know anything about new cars. Heck, we have electric power steering now ... ?

[modnrod]

And for defrosting, I find it hard to believe there isn't a small but efficient electric heater out there nowadays that could be plumbed in to the ducting for that.

Lots of 90s Japanese cars have them, I always used the complete setup out of the early 90s Mazda 121 (the little "bubble car"), but some other also run them. We can get just about everything Japanese here easy, so can pick and choose then get it down fairly simply.

OR, maybe one of these might be worth a try.........
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xelectric+car+heater.TRS0&_nkw=electric+car+heater&_sacat=0

[modnrod]

Oooooo. Wrong thread, sorry Jim.
 

But on this thread, have you ever tried one of your merged exhausts with a smaller diameter outlet pipe, say, 2.25" instead of 3"?

[Jim Ratto]

A few months on now, and happier still with the new pipes.