EFI Kits and options

[stait9]

Hello everyone

Firstly I apologies for thinking about EFI over my 48 IDAs given this the Cal-Look forum, however, things have come to light about my driving style, where I am actually driving versus where I would like to be driving and reliability.

The upshot is I looking into more reliability and usability around town and around the twisty roads of the South West of England.  It seems to be making a big difference compared to lovely open straight rounds.

I've been reading various threads on here regarding people's projects including Baz, Lukej and andy198712, and I wanted to ask people's opinion and feedback on the various kits available and options.

The main kits seem to be: VWSpeedshop's kit and CB Performance.  There is a slight price difference (more so now thanks to Brexit) but not enough to sway the decision.  What are peoples experiences of these kits?

Luke and Andy seem to have gone down the DIY route utilitising motor bike throttle bodies, in particular the GXSR600.  Are these throttle bodies and injector set-ups a better option (if not a bit more fiddly) even though you need to build the manifolds?

Finally, I've been looking into Jenvey throttle bodies as another option, which look good but seem to be top dollar?

Does anyone know of other options worth looking into?

Any help/views would be much appreciated.  And yes, I've spoken to several people about keeping the IDAs and changing the set-up.  This is not a done deal

The engine is a 2276 with FK8 cam.

Cheers

Stuart

[Chip]

Mario at thedubshop.net is a good option if you are looking for a kit. He can build a kit as complete or incomplete as you'd like.  Worth a look if you are okay with using a US based seller.

[dannyboy]

if in uk  speedshop kit with dta ecu would be my choice 

[dive!dive!]

^^^^^  This
Pauls (speedshop) throttle bodies are excellent. Better than Jenvey or CB in my opinion. DTA or AEM (what I have) will both work. There is a learning curve, but I would never go back to carbs (totally get it if you want the look, nothing wrong with that)

[stait9]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[UltraOrange67-2443]

I have Jenvey IDA bodies as I'm running JPM MS250 Heads.

Depends on your head choice.

I've got a Omex ECU.

Cheers, Nick

[Martin S.]

I've got a single TB which is from an air cooled VW van which simplifies things even though I have a turbo. I'm also getting away with using a stock size header and stock heater boxes because turbo so there are a few advantages there. EFI is worry free. Let it sit in storage and it has always fired up without any plugged jets or stale gas. I haven't plugged in the laptop since the initial tuning years ago either. Electromotive ECU running sequential and everything hand built/adapted to a basic turbo header/kit.

[dragvw2180]

 If you are interested in an Electromotive setup , John Toomey has one that he will sell reasonable . Myself I would really think about using a single throttle body , especially with a turbo. Mike McCarthy

[richie]

My tuppeny worth

Unless you have the knowledge to tune it yourself you are better speaking to some localish people who you would trust to tune it for you and see what they recommend, the actual kit & fitting is simple enough but getting it tuned right and the most out of it is more complicated.
Also get the latest newest version of whatever you chose as they get updated so often now, as mentioned Mario does good stuff but a lot of places don't seem to like tuning megasquirt in uk.
Personally I would go for Jenvey throttle bodies and a DTA ecu, at least then all the sensors etc are readily available in UK but that's just my personal choice based on what I have used and know, also then the throttle bodies will fit your existing manifolds and you wont need to do any match porting like you would if you start again with other set ups.

cheers Richie   

[Torben Alstrup]

What Ritchie said. Availability of parts and knowledge about the specific ECU is almost as important as the product itself. I kinda like eEectromotive, other´s claim they can´t make it work properly (!) Lately the EMU has shown real nice options for decent money, and is relatively easy to work with. DTA takes a good score if youre in the UK.

T

[dannyboy]

the other great thing about dta is the forum they have,  questions about tuning issues can be answered by alex if he's online even sunday afternoon  ,

[Martin S.]

Like my (ex) tuner Steve said, he liked the history of Electromotive. The guy behind it fought with GM over the coil-on-plug ignition invention with the patent for decades before finally winning the lawsuit after which he died.

[stait9]

Thanks everyone.

DTA in the UK does seem to a good option.  My local tuner is Graham @ Rawspeed Tuning and he's familiar with the software which is very positive.

The different options are quite amazing when you starting looking into this in more detail but as you state Richie, its all about the tuning. 

The dubshop hidden trigger stuff looks really interesting:http://www.thedubshop.net/#!trigger-wheel-aluminum/c1uer, but without a doubt sexiest kit (I think I can use that word) has to go to JPM roller throttle bodies 

Really appreciate everyones input

[Martin S.]

My Electromotive trigger wheel.

[dive!dive!]

I think there is a lot to be said for learning how to map your own ECU.....a lot of stuff (like cold start) will not be done on a dyno...knowledge of how your ECU works and being able to do 95% of the tune yourself, on the road, has a lot of advantages. Yes, it takes time to read and understand the sometimes hundreds of pages of manual...but worth it. Get most of it done yourself then go to the dyno for the fine tuning of WOT settings.

[Martin S.]

Use your system on a stock engine to test n tune before risking blowing up an expensive engine if possible. Simply typing a 0 instead of a 9 (they're beside each other on the keyboard) could run your system lean and kill something.

[Fiatdude]

AJ Sims is working with a company over in Riverside CA, that has an EFI that bolts up to a 4 barrel manifold -- it can be used as a draw-thru -- I've seen it used on a VW with and without a turbo, has auto-tune capabilities and AJ supplies the modified tune to use with the typical draw-thru setup -- AJ is running one on his car in the 165 tire class. 

I have Electromotive and AEM EMS-4 -- the AEM is just way to complicated for me to figure out and I had to get a professional to do the setup and initial tune..................

[dragvw2180]

 The only negative I saw with the 4 barrel EFI was that the PCM is integrated into the throttle body . I would rather have sensitive electronics in a cooler location, JMHO        Mike McCarthy

[Fiatdude]

E85 will cool anything LOL

[dragvw2180]

LOL , nothing would have been cool at Drag Nite a few weeks ago.

[Brian Rogers]

I may be talking thru my hat, didn't someone offer throttle bodies in the shape of a Weber IDA? Are they still available?

[andy198712]

Hi,
i run megasquirt, but like has been said, if your employing a tuner who will give a street tune then go with what he knows and works with ideally

Megasquirt is a bit DIY although if a tuner can tune a map, he can do MS.
there is a HUGE MS forum that has the creators on there who release BETAs all the time and take on feedback and write codes in response to what the people want.
it works just as good as any. they're all really the same thing really....


just depends what you want

with throttle bodies, modifying is a bit of a ball ache, if you can afford something that fits stock manifolds id go for that or go single throttle body and turbo later 

[dragvw2180]

 Same wheel as Martin posted but shows the backside, also shows crank trigger. Mike McCarthy

[Martin S.]

Looks like Electromotive. It's very cool that they manufacture a pulley and sensor that is made to bolt on a Type 1 VW engine. I don't know of anyone else that does that. Most adapt that butt ugly Flintstones looking Ford trigger wheel to a VW.

[Chip]

I think the dubshop.net has the cleanest trigger wheel install kit of all. Uses readily available sensors too.

[Martin S.]

Clean is good! They have a lot of crank trigger options on their site. I don't see a crank position sensor? I'm using a modded 009 distributor (single lobe and points) with a custom aluminum lid for that. It's not needed unless you are running a sequential (not batch) injection set up though.

[Fiatdude]

I have both -- Electro and Mario's -- both are well thought out and hidden -- I like both, but I currently have Mario's on my car -- I also run Mario's cam sensor that plugs into the distributor hole -- a very nice piece too!!!!

crank and cam triggers are on this page -- -- http://www.thedubshop.net/#!products/c17av



OH -- -- He has some 40 and 48 mm throttle bodies TOO

[Airspeed]

'Most has been said, but as a (former) long time user of the Jenvey throttle bodies, I started to get play around the throttle plates and the plate adjustment mechanism (which uses a 1,5mm(!) allen screw) also started to fail eventually (after having fallen out twice).
All in all, in the long run, I wasn;t all too pleased with the Jenvey quality and ordered some VWSpeedshop throttle bodies with ball bearing throttle plates. The Jenveys are just rideing the aluminium bore and it wears out. At least it did on my (turbo) engine.
The VWSpeedshop T-bodies are even a little less expensive iirc, so these now get my vote.

BTW, I like DTA as well. If you can, get the S60 version which has a pretty big memory log function. Ideal if you tune yourself on the road. Otherwise the cheaper S40 has also closed loop (but nog datalog) and will do fine for most all other situations, especially if its your first ecu 

Walter