Race 1584cc with 48IDA's engine build up aka (Titanium Valves search)

[Greg Ward]

Could anyone tell me where to find stock Type1 length Titanium valves?

I know CB sell the Type4 length Ti valves, I have a set of these in another motor, but for the liife of me can't find them for a normal Type1.

All the other aftermarket ones I have searched for appear to have non compatible lengths and the stem sizes are smaller to totally tiny!

If anyone can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Greg

[Erlend / bug66]

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=titanium

[dangerous]

Bergs may still have old stock as well, in three groove.
You can custom order any Manley valve you need through Fabre Australia also.
Manley no longer do the three groove collets, but single 'bead lock' is nicer anyhow.
Looks like Aircooled ones do too, since they come with collets.

[dangerous]

PS Johannes' heads use type 4 length. 

[Greg Ward]

Thanks for the replies,

The ones at Aircooled.Net kick off at 37.5mm,  I suppose I could change the seats in the heads, but I'd prefer not to if I can find what I need.

I'll check out Manley and see what they have available.

Cheers,

Greg

[Martin S.]

Just curious, why do you want such small valves in your heads? 

[Greg Ward]

Hi Martin,

Fair question!

I could stuff 40x35.5mm seats and valves in it, but they are stock valved heads for a specific CC racing class that I've already spent weeks porting, I'm not allowed to make the bore size any bigger or of course I'd run something larger and more conventional.

To make the power required with the small CC's allowed it will have a large cam, high CR, plenty of lift and lots of rpm.

[Martin S.]

I see, so no bigger valves allowed either. 32x35 are small even for a stock 1600. I've always like 35x40 as what people did with the 041 heads.

[Greg Ward]

Yeah, like I said I could redo the seats and put 40x35.5 valves in these heads but I already have them and spent the time making them flow as much as they can through the stock valves.
I did another stock set for a friend that were nowhere near as wild as these, and on the 1600 engine I built for him running some 44IDF's it ran a 9.3@73MPH in the 1/8 with stock gears in his Beetle.

I'll see what it can do with the setup the way it is, and if it doesn't do as well as it should then bang for buck has to be CB's Panchito 044's, they can come in 85.5 bore and should be killer just off the shelf.

[alex d]

That sounds fun, not sure you need fancy titanium valves though, what camshaft are you planning on running?

[modnrod]

I've got some SI valves in the shed Greg in both stock and 041 sizes, they seem to flow as well as the Manley SDs, but they're SS not Ti.
I rang it thru, they emailed me an invoice and I Payp@l'd them.......a week later they got here (country WA).

Have fun man, spin it up. 

[Jim Ratto]

I assisted with a street engine build 20 years ago:

88 x 69
256' @ 0.050/284' @ 0.020/0.507" @ valve (with 1.25)
stock valve sixes in ported 040 castings
8.8:1
40IDF x 2 with 32mm chokes on tall manifolds
1-1/2" header

14.71 @ 91mph  in street trim, full stock weight with 195/65 Dunlop radials, stock 4.37:1 transaxle.

[dangerous]

I think you should stay with the smaller valves
and just turn down some 37.5s if you want to use the titanium.

Frosty's 1775cc made 128hp at the wheels with stock VW valves,
and a good enough spread in power to run in the 12's (guessing at 1600lbs, but can't remember)
so based on that, a 35.5 valve should be heaps.

You can always sneak up the throat sizes a little to make the engine 'think' it has a bigger valve.

[Martin S.]

Yes! grinding down those $140 USD valves would be fun hehe. 

[brian e]

Pull the 35mm seat out and bump it too a 37.5 seat.  Then use the 37mm titanium valve as is. 

I have had really good luck with well ported 37X32 heads.  I am just finishing up a set with a smallish 60cc port volume and 151cfm.  I still need to do a good valve job, but I am guessing they will be right close to 155cfm when I am done. 

With the light valve, and aluminum push rods, you could probably get away with a good single spring. 

Brian

[Martin S.]

Is getting away with a good single spring an advantage?

[brian e]

Is getting away with a good single spring an advantage?

Have you ever turned an engine with single springs over by hand, and then a similar engine with dual springs?  Big difference..  Less spring pressure means less HP wasted, less guide wear, less heat, stock size guide bosses, etc..

Brian

[Jim Ratto]

Is getting away with a good single spring an advantage?

Have you ever turned an engine with single springs over by hand, and then a similar engine with dual springs?  Big difference..  Less spring pressure means less HP wasted, less guide wear, less heat, stock size guide bosses, etc..

Brian

and less heat.

Edit, sorry you had mentioned that. 

[Bruce]

  .......it will have a large cam, high CR, plenty of lift and lots of rpm.

I suspect Greg is planning on RPMs that are well beyond what any single spring can manage.

[K-Roc]

Stiffer spring do not cause an engine to loose power.  Weak springs and valve float do.

Notice when you turn over an engine with a wrench,  with big springs once you get past peak lift on a lobe the engine wants to rotate the wrench out of your hand as it turns by itself.  ( The spring gives back what was put into it)

 

[Martin S.]

Is getting away with a good single spring an advantage?

Have you ever turned an engine with single springs over by hand, and then a similar engine with dual springs?  Big difference..  Less spring pressure means less HP wasted, less guide wear, less heat, stock size guide bosses, etc..

Brian

Yes but that's expected. Big engine is harder to turn over than a 36 hp but so what?
My engine doesn't have any of those problems and it has dual springs. 

[Jim Ratto]

I think you should stay with the smaller valves
and just turn down some 37.5s if you want to use the titanium.

Frosty's 1775cc made 128hp at the wheels with stock VW valves,
and a good enough spread in power to run in the 12's (guessing at 1600lbs, but can't remember)
so based on that, a 35.5 valve should be heaps.

You can always sneak up the throat sizes a little to make the engine 'think' it has a bigger valve.

That's exactly the number we came up with as a target for peak HP when we were writing out the 88 x 69 I mentioned above, 127.6hp. I think if the taper in manifold is ported correctly (and correct manifolds to begin with) and the throat area is attended to, this size valve will make good broad power in 1776 or smaller, 2800-6500 with a cam that works in that range (for 1776).

[Greg Ward]

Thanks for all the replies.

Deciding on this after all the research, I've bought a set of Manley SS valves in the stock sizes. I could have had them made in TI as Dave suggested, but the $3K+ price is better spent on other items.

Engine will be stock 1584cc.
Cam is a split lobe design and will have a limit of 9000rpm and will use some strong AL pushrods and Dual springs/w TI retainers.

I have to weigh the pistons when they get here, but I'm looking at 100g ea lighter than stock at least.

[dangerous]

Sounds awesome Greg!
Keep us posted!
Would love to see some head pictures!

[Greg Ward]

Here's some head pictures.

By no means do I claim to be any expert on porting heads, but these were going to be thrown away, so I repurposed them.

This design whilst not so radical as some, seems to work for me for the 8 sets I've done so far.

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[Greg Ward]

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[Greg Ward]

I have to install Exhaust valve guides, cut them for dual springs and do a proper valve job, as you can see none of this has been done as yet.

I'll also flap wheel the intake and exhaust ports to clean/pretty them up, they are simply off the porting tool at the moment.


Cheers,

Greg

[Jim Ratto]

Looks like they will have great air speed for the small CC engine and still be able to turn RPM

[dangerous]

Looks good man.
Do some reading about inlet port finish.
Latest thinking, is to leave the burr finish on the inlet.
Have not tried it on my own stuff yet, but makes sense.

[modnrod]

Every time I try that Greg I end up with Devcon everywhere!
(Bench, toolbox, fingers, the dog, etc).
 

I like the port bias.