fast street cars

[lawrence]

well that brings us to the topic, what is a great power (hp/ torque) figure in any given car that has that wow-factor to it. maybe it is a 356 (light and decent power, but not as big as amercan cars of the same era). just what would be fun in my type3. i allready know it doesn't need to get the highest RPMs, but it needs to pull from 1000rpms till???, just like a ?

150 hp in your type 3 should be fun, but the torque values and a broad powerband are what really matter in a heavy car. If this is your true street car and you want to pull from 1000rpms be a little more conservative with parts choice. Is it really necessary to turn more than 5k rpms in a "street car." Tell your head porter EXACTLY what you want to do and the two of you should be able to decide on an engine combo for you. I would build a 2110  because it will provide plenty of torque and the thick cylinders are a wise idea in a type 3.  Engle 110 cam with 1.25 rockers. Smallish ported heads (d-port ) with 40x35.5 valves maybe 8.7:1 compression ratio. It does not need IDAs, but they sure are cool. Good luck, nicolas. Let us know how things turn out.

[The Ideaman]

well that brings us to the topic, what is a great power (hp/ torque) figure in any given car that has that wow-factor to it. maybe it is a 356 (light and decent power, but not as big as amercan cars of the same era). just what would be fun in my type3. i allready know it doesn't need to get the highest RPMs, but it needs to pull from 1000rpms till???, just like a ?

150 hp in your type 3 should be fun, but the torque values and a broad powerband are what really matter in a heavy car. If this is your true street car and you want to pull from 1000rpms be a little more conservative with parts choice. Is it really necessary to turn more than 5k rpms in a "street car." Tell your head porter EXACTLY what you want to do and the two of you should be able to decide on an engine combo for you. I would build a 2110  because it will provide plenty of torque and the thick cylinders are a wise idea in a type 3.  Engle 110 cam with 1.25 rockers. Smallish ported heads (d-port ) with 40x35.5 valves maybe 8.7:1 compression ratio. It does not need IDAs, but they sure are cool. Good luck, nicolas. Let us know how things turn out.

I have almost the exact combo lawrence describes in the fastback, except for a k8 and CB roundports.  IDA's are tough to get under the lid on a type 3.

[Jim Ratto]

Engle 110 is too small for a "torque" motor even. The K8 is a good choice nicolas or W125 with 1.25

A motor needs some duration in order for it to breathe. And cool.

[nicolas]

well i have posted it before. but it all seems to fall into place lately. so here is what will be the combo. 78x90.5 with a fk8 on 1.4scats and heads will be 40x35 heads fully reworked by stevesvwshop. we talked about the combo and indeed came with the same idea about the engine as you lawrence. it will be able to pull up to 6500 rpms max, but it will do it from 1000. so it should have some nice torquefigures as well.

anyway i got a enginestand yesterday and 2 sets of pistons to start measuring everything out. i am a bit nevervous about this as itneeds to be done properly and i dont have all the fancy, but very usefull machinery i see on pictures here on the lounge. i just have a small hobbytoolbox and can get myhands on some good standard measuringtools.
and the best news for me is that the longstroke pistons and cylinders have a sticker on them from Johnny Speed and Chrome parts!!!! somehow i am a sucker for that brand. i just like the parts a lot and i think the reflect that 80's look perfectly. i have no idea how these pistons made it to Belgium, but they seem to be in a very good state and still greased, so i think they are of good quality.

and one last think i have been thinking about: does a 'sporty sports car' need to have rearwheel drive? just a question. i have thought a lot of these cars mentioned in this post are rearwheeldriven... 

[Jim Ratto]

Sensation from an 11 sec race car compared to 13 sec street car is light years apart. I piloted a low 11 sec S/G Karmann Ghia for a year or so. Everything happens about as soon as you think about it. Leaving the line is way different (car had spool too), power came in @ 6K and went to 9K, if you lifted in 3rd or 4th, the car nosedived, then if you got back on throttle, it was instant acceleration. My Bug, even when it went 12.70's-12.90's on slicks was like driving around town compared to the KG. Everything was "softer", "quieter", and delayed.
To me, a fast street car needs to have a "hint" of race-car in it, which means the above mentioned sound and fury and a little fussiness. We can get a little off topic here and I will discuss my old WRX 2.0 compared to my 2006 Legacy 2.5 Turbo. The little WRX was 2.0 liters, made 227hp, and I had equipped it with a large bore Prodrive silencer and removed the stock intake silencer. So the car had a throaty, hard-edged sound, along with being fairly quick. The Legacy, on the other hand, is 2.5 liters, with variable valve timing, and makes 250hp. I haven't swapped mufflers on it, and intake is stock, plus car is light years ahead of the WRX in sound dampening. So even though the Legacy is a few ticks quicker in 0-60 and 1/4 mile, it "seems" slower due to sedate sounds it makes (though it's flat four does have a nice, but subtle growl to it when stomped on). The WRX had a fussier powerband too, it was all 4K and up, while Legacy will grunt from down around 2000. My point?
Well it much to do with what I have been looking for since I have been into hot-rodding VW's, and have achieved only very, very few times. Building my 2276 that went 12.60-70's isn't it either.

When I was 14-15 years old, a friend of mine in high school had an uncle that was into autocross, timed events held in a parking lot, course defined by pylons. Anyway, he competed in a completely street legal 1970 Datsun 240Z that was warmed over with Weber sidedraft carbs, Isky cam and custom headers and glasspack mufflers. He took me for a ride around Pleasanton in the car and it was all about being a "fast street car", to me, then and now. It made all the right noises, garbling and snorting Webers down low, then as revs climbed, everything smoothed out and the motor pulled and pulled and pulled, shoving me in the seat harder and harder all the way until tach showed 7K. Everything seemed to come into play after 4K or so. I still remember that ride like it was 10 minutes ago. The way that car went through gears and screamed made it feel "FAST." Yet I never looked at speedometer, so who knows.

My first venture into the VW stroker motor arena in 1990 made my '67 feel like it was a very fast street car, though in reality, it was a 14 sec car. It ran Weber 44's, Engle 125, 40 x 35 heads, dual merged muffs. Again, it was the powerband and the sounds. Together they made my '67 feel incredibly fun and fast.

Probably the VW motor that captured the "fast street car" certification in my book, more than any other, was Frank (sheep's) Seifert's 1914 that we screwed together out of garage left-overs. It was an incredibly simple, but potent motor, with little $ in it. Made up of a Mexican AS21 uni case, Rimco 69 crank, Rimco rods, 94's, Crown 6lb flywheel, K8 cam and the heads from my stroker motor and of course, 48IDA's. We never took that car to the strip, but the way it accelerated the car made the motor feel like an uncaged animal. It probably would have laid down high 13's.

Anyway, this whole discussion is pretty much in line with why I am probably going to drop 86C in my motor. The FK45 is almost too streetable. It's awake @ 2600 rpm and doesn't have the yank and that power curve like the Datsun and sheep's 1914. It zips up quickly and then noses over. More than likely, it's faster than it needs to be, but I'm used to it. Besides what is more fun than getting oily in the garage?

[Zach Gomulka]

First of all let me say that it is more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow

Ive got a couple opinions on this subject. First the true daily driver car that takes you everywhere and you wouldnt hesitate to fire up right now and drive it across a couple of states (or countries ). Its going to be a little on the heavy side to make it more comfortable, and its going to have stock or slightly taller gears for easy highway cruising. Reguardless of the engine size, I think this engine should be capable of 1hp and 1ft/lb of torque per cubic inch. So for instance a 1915cc engine that produces 117hp and 117ft/lbs or torque. An engine like this will need a conservative cam, and thus wont beat itself to death with high rpms, proving itself very reliable over the long run.

Second is the "street" car It is light, and has close ratio gears perfect for running down the strip or trips around town. Wheel horsepower to weight (with driver) ratio of about 10:1. Capable of 12's in street trim (street tires, muffler, belt), and 11's with all the stops pulled out.

[67worshipper]

alot of talk around a 1914 size.is this a good streetable size and whats the opinions of the internals.

[Jim Ratto]

alot of talk around a 1914 size.is this a good streetable size and whats the opinions of the internals.

yes 1914 can be built in all different states of tune and be streetable.

The K8, 9:1, 40 x 35.5, Weber 44-48mm's is a favorite recipe of mine.

[lawrence]

Engle 110 is too small for a "torque" motor even. The K8 is a good choice nicolas or W125 with 1.25

A motor needs some duration in order for it to breathe. And cool.

Good point. Stroker motors can get away with having larger cams due to the torque, but he could always change the cam if he wanted to, right Jim  

67worshipper, the 1914 is a great motor! I love mine. I used a counter weighted crank and scat I beam rods with arp bolts. Nice heads are important. An engle fk 43 sounds like an interesting cam
Type "1914" into the seach function and you should be able to find a lot of information on many combinations that people have built. Good luck.

[67worshipper]

thanx for the info boys. buying parts as and when i can afford so plenty of time too make my mind up about a combo!

[louisb]

thanx for the info boys. buying parts as and when i can afford so plenty of time too make my mind up about a combo!

Problem with that is, there is also plenty of time to change your mind again, and again and again and...  

--louis

[bugkeeper]

1914cc gets you the best bang for the money. I am a sucker for WebCam Camshafts. Try their asymetrical grind 110/163 on 1:1.25 Ratio Rockers.
VALVE LIFT .435 /.422, DURATION 284°,  DURATION @.050 256°/249°. This gives you strong power range. It pulls nicely of the line and it gets real snappy above 4500 RPM. Less duration and lift on the exhaust valve compaired to the intake valve on mouse motors can be benficial for the dynamic compression ratio. I even experimented with diffrent rocker ratios between the intake and exhaust valve. This will give you lots of fun with a lot less money spent compared to a stroker engine. My engine makes 118.99 HP (120.64 PS) @ 5813 rpm and gives me 107.45 ft/lbs (145.2 Nm) torque @ 5625 rpm. It is a fast street car, ask some BMW and Audi drivers around my hometown 

[Cornpanzer]

When I built my 2276, I picked up a set of head secondhand for $500.  They were an unwelded "D" port head with 40 intakes and 37.5 exhaust.  I chose a FK-8 to go with it.

 My goals were to run mid-13s, but I had several (read everyone I talked to) of the west coast gurus tell me that the car would never run a 13 with such small heads.  Nevertheless, that is all I could afford at the time and I went with it.  At 10:1 compression, that car had the best powerband of any aspirated VW I had ever been in.  It would start pulling about 1000 rpm earlier than most and was done by 7000 which saved parts.  The first pass ever with street tires and a fuel delivery problem in 4th netted a 13.51.   

Eventually, that car ran 12.4's on pump gas and 12.20 at Carlsbad with a bit of fuel additive     The best thing about that engine is how it performed on the street.  It was soooo snappy!  You could roll around around the neighborhood in second gear and slap the throttle and it would instantly respond "WROOOMP" and stretch that front suspension to the limits.  No bog, no hesitation.....almost electric. 

I would play around on the street a lot and - first and second gears, nothing crazy and nothing would touch that car! The point is that bigger is not always better.  That motor probably made barely 200hp (if).  I drove a popular DRKC car of that era once.  It had the biggest of everything, huge valves, huge heads, 12.5:1 compression and the powerband of 125cc dirt bike.  The car was a PIG.  Would overheat even with race fuel, was nearly impossible to drive at low RPM - lurching and bucking.  Worst part about it was that this car was only about .15 quicker than my car.  Clearly not worth it.

Now that my car has a turbo, it is WAAAAY faster.  Every time I drive it I come back with my hands shaking just a little bit.  You can go from 40 to 100 in one gear.....in just a matter of two or three seconds.  Yet, I dont enjoy it on the street like the aspirated combo.  Not because it isnt fun, but because I  recognize that if I use even 50% of its potential I will eventually end up in jail. 

Dont let that illusive 10 or 15 HP haunt you.  A lot of times, they are just numbers

[Jim Ratto]

When I built my 2276, I picked up a set of head secondhand for $500.  They were an unwelded "D" port head with 40 intakes and 37.5 exhaust.  I chose a FK-8 to go with it.

 My goals were to run mid-13s, but I had several (read everyone I talked to) of the west coast gurus tell me that the car would never run a 13 with such small heads.  Nevertheless, that is all I could afford at the time and I went with it.  At 10:1 compression, that car had the best powerband of any aspirated VW I had ever been in.  It would start pulling about 1000 rpm earlier than most and was done by 7000 which saved parts.  The first pass ever with street tires and a fuel delivery problem in 4th netted a 13.51.   

Eventually, that car ran 12.4's on pump gas and 12.20 at Carlsbad with a bit of fuel additive     The best thing about that engine is how it performed on the street.  It was soooo snappy!  You could roll around around the neighborhood in second gear and slap the throttle and it would instantly respond "WROOOMP" and stretch that front suspension to the limits.  No bog, no hesitation.....almost electric. 

I would play around on the street a lot and - first and second gears, nothing crazy and nothing would touch that car! The point is that bigger is not always better.  That motor probably made barely 200hp (if).  I drove a popular DRKC car of that era once.  It had the biggest of everything, huge valves, huge heads, 12.5:1 compression and the powerband of 125cc dirt bike.  The car was a PIG.  Would overheat even with race fuel, was nearly impossible to drive at low RPM - lurching and bucking.  Worst part about it was that this car was only about .15 quicker than my car.  Clearly not worth it.

Now that my car has a turbo, it is WAAAAY faster.  Every time I drive it I come back with my hands shaking just a little bit.  You can go from 40 to 100 in one gear.....in just a matter of two or three seconds.  Yet, I dont enjoy it on the street like the aspirated combo.  Not because it isnt fun, but because I  recognize that if I use even 50% of its potential I will eventually end up in jail. 

Dont let that illusive 10 or 15 HP haunt you.  A lot of times, they are just numbers

Perfect post Dave. Your motor is what I wish some of mine would have turned out like, and few have. I tried the bigger is better route a few years back and well, we know what happened. Can you say burnt out??? Wish I could have ridden in the black car when it was carbed. Your e.t.'s proved everybody wrong. Nice work.

[Bewitched666]

Thats why i'm building an under the 2 liter engine

For bigger cc's i turn to my pro racer

[Zach Gomulka]

When I built my 2276...

That motor was just magic. I still wonder how those parts added up to that kind of performance. Unreal...

[SOB/RFH]

When I built my 2276, I picked up a set of head secondhand for $500.  They were an unwelded "D" port head with 40 intakes and 37.5 exhaust.  I chose a FK-8 to go with it.

 My goals were to run mid-13s, but I had several (read everyone I talked to) of the west coast gurus tell me that the car would never run a 13 with such small heads.  Nevertheless, that is all I could afford at the time and I went with it.  At 10:1 compression, that car had the best powerband of any aspirated VW I had ever been in.  It would start pulling about 1000 rpm earlier than most and was done by 7000 which saved parts.  The first pass ever with street tires and a fuel delivery problem in 4th netted a 13.51.   

Eventually, that car ran 12.4's on pump gas and 12.20 at Carlsbad with a bit of fuel additive     The best thing about that engine is how it performed on the street.  It was soooo snappy!  You could roll around around the neighborhood in second gear and slap the throttle and it would instantly respond "WROOOMP" and stretch that front suspension to the limits.  No bog, no hesitation.....almost electric. 

I would play around on the street a lot and - first and second gears, nothing crazy and nothing would touch that car! The point is that bigger is not always better.  That motor probably made barely 200hp (if).  I drove a popular DRKC car of that era once.  It had the biggest of everything, huge valves, huge heads, 12.5:1 compression and the powerband of 125cc dirt bike.  The car was a PIG.  Would overheat even with race fuel, was nearly impossible to drive at low RPM - lurching and bucking.  Worst part about it was that this car was only about .15 quicker than my car.  Clearly not worth it.

Now that my car has a turbo, it is WAAAAY faster.  Every time I drive it I come back with my hands shaking just a little bit.  You can go from 40 to 100 in one gear.....in just a matter of two or three seconds.  Yet, I dont enjoy it on the street like the aspirated combo.  Not because it isnt fun, but because I  recognize that if I use even 50% of its potential I will eventually end up in jail. 

Dont let that illusive 10 or 15 HP haunt you.  A lot of times, they are just numbers

Dave helped me out with some photos of those ports and I used those as a guildlien when I assembled a motor for a friend of mine. 40*35,5 heads and not to wildly ported heads. 84*94 with 5,5" rods and 11,8:1 compression ratio...Egle 130 cam and 1,25:1 rockers....48 IDA with 40 vents and a 1 5/8" exhaust...with a 4,37 R/P and 3.89/2,06/1,32/0,93 gearbox, a set of MH street tires and with stinger and no belt it pulled 13.60's. The drivebillity of that combo was unreal. Pulled from idle to 7K and no hesitation at all and when cruising it, it was as a stocker!!! I love those tiny valved heads on big motors!!!!