What will it take?

[andrewlandon67]

So I've been doing a great deal of thinking over the last couple of years and I've come up with a properly quantitative goal for my '67. I want, just once, to be able to record a trap speed in the 1/4 mile of 100 mph, and I want to do it at my elevation (~6,000 feet) with a pump gas engine. It can be a fluke pass, or a one off with borrowed slicks, but it's a big damn achievement in my mind, and a 100mph club sticker would look awfully cool somewhere on it.

My question then is, what do you all think it'll take for a street driven bug, with street gears (4.37 R&P, .89 4th,) and about 1,850lbs including driver, to do that and still be streetable? I've driven one fast bug with really close gears to a 14.02 at 95mph, and my bug's best time with a 4.12 'box was 14.87 at 88.85 mph, so I'm imagining I'll be somewhere in the mid-high 13s at 100 mph, but let me know what your experiences are, or if you think it's even achievable!

[karl h]

Marks old combo comes to mind:

2332 cc

 210HP on 91 octane. Good for weekend warrior and limited driving but will last a good 30k before heads need work.
You'll need close gearing but you could drive it coast to coast if you didnt mind waisting alot of its useful life in the process.

84 stroke crank, forged any brand.
12lb flywheel,stock or aftermarket.
Drill both for 11/32s dowel pins.
Kennedy ST 2 w/cushlock disc.

5.5 " H beam rods with arp 2000 bolts, any brand with 5/16th bolts. Dont use 3/8s bolt rods unless you like grinding the heck out of your cam.

Cima 94 piston/cyls, stock out of the box. assemble dry with no oil.
use racing pin clips.

CB Wedgeport 44x 37.5 heads with VW style three groove valves ,bugpack 4046 dual springs and Titanium retainers. Check Valve seat seal and flycut for 10 to 1 compr with .040 piston to cyl deck.
Or the equivalent in a hand ported set of heads, Good luck beating the flow figures of these heads tho. And good luck waiting for them.

Tall IDA manifolds that are ported all the way up and only flair slightly at the bottom where the port goes into the head. This is where most people fail their motor. The manifolds must not restrict the flow of the heads. do what ever it takes to make them right.

48 IDAs with 44 vents 180 mains and 200 airs.
48 dells or IDFs can work but will limit power slightly since a 42 vent is as big as you can go.

1-3/4" header with 2.5" muff.

VW mag case (install large oil pick up from 1600),cut for sand seal,FF,bore&stroke. straight cut timing gears(not cast), CB flaired pushrod tubes, twin lip silicone flywheel seal (install deep), 26mm Shadeck oil pump plugged for full flow, EMPI iron FF cover, 1.5 qt sump, chrome moly 8mm head studs.

Scat lifters resurfaced by SLR or web or CB lifters.
FK46 Engle cam.
1.4 scat rockers or equivalent. Lift at valve must not exceed .600.
3/8 thin wall Chrome Moly pushrods. scat,cb ,manton...
lashcaps.

I use new stock valve covers and bails with vents for breather .
36hp DH shroud with glued internal vains so they don't break loose.
009 with Ignitor/compufire and Blue or Red Bosch coil.
Bosch plugwires.

My 1400lb 65 Bug (with driver) went 11.03 at almost 122mph before Carlsbad got closed down and I drove around the streets of OC destroying anything in its path. This same type of motor went 11.80 in another full weight street car that was only missing the back seat.


maybe just use a 82 crank (they are easier to get with a VW rod journal) and a slightly less radical cam - you should be able to go 100mph easily
i have all the parts for this engine (82 crank/Fk-43 cam/ pieper lifters) and will try to build it over the winter. problem is i have to convert the heating system for my house (and garage) to not burn gas this winter 

[andrewlandon67]

Marks old combo comes to mind:

2332 cc

 210HP on 91 octane. Good for weekend warrior and limited driving but will last a good 30k before heads need work.
You'll need close gearing but you could drive it coast to coast if you didnt mind waisting alot of its useful life in the process.

84 stroke crank, forged any brand.
12lb flywheel,stock or aftermarket.
Drill both for 11/32s dowel pins.
Kennedy ST 2 w/cushlock disc.

5.5 " H beam rods with arp 2000 bolts, any brand with 5/16th bolts. Dont use 3/8s bolt rods unless you like grinding the heck out of your cam.

Cima 94 piston/cyls, stock out of the box. assemble dry with no oil.
use racing pin clips.

CB Wedgeport 44x 37.5 heads with VW style three groove valves ,bugpack 4046 dual springs and Titanium retainers. Check Valve seat seal and flycut for 10 to 1 compr with .040 piston to cyl deck.
Or the equivalent in a hand ported set of heads, Good luck beating the flow figures of these heads tho. And good luck waiting for them.

Tall IDA manifolds that are ported all the way up and only flair slightly at the bottom where the port goes into the head. This is where most people fail their motor. The manifolds must not restrict the flow of the heads. do what ever it takes to make them right.

48 IDAs with 44 vents 180 mains and 200 airs.
48 dells or IDFs can work but will limit power slightly since a 42 vent is as big as you can go.

1-3/4" header with 2.5" muff.

VW mag case (install large oil pick up from 1600),cut for sand seal,FF,bore&stroke. straight cut timing gears(not cast), CB flaired pushrod tubes, twin lip silicone flywheel seal (install deep), 26mm Shadeck oil pump plugged for full flow, EMPI iron FF cover, 1.5 qt sump, chrome moly 8mm head studs.

Scat lifters resurfaced by SLR or web or CB lifters.
FK46 Engle cam.
1.4 scat rockers or equivalent. Lift at valve must not exceed .600.
3/8 thin wall Chrome Moly pushrods. scat,cb ,manton...
lashcaps.

I use new stock valve covers and bails with vents for breather .
36hp DH shroud with glued internal vains so they don't break loose.
009 with Ignitor/compufire and Blue or Red Bosch coil.
Bosch plugwires.

My 1400lb 65 Bug (with driver) went 11.03 at almost 122mph before Carlsbad got closed down and I drove around the streets of OC destroying anything in its path. This same type of motor went 11.80 in another full weight street car that was only missing the back seat.


maybe just use a 82 crank (they are easier to get with a VW rod journal) and a slightly less radical cam - you should be able to go 100mph easily
i have all the parts for this engine (82 crank/Fk-43 cam/ pieper lifters) and will try to build it over the winter. problem is i have to convert the heating system for my house (and garage) to not burn gas this winter 

Is that the old SSB engine? That sounds like it'd make my 1915 look like a stock lump! Do you know if that cam/head/compression combo would work with stock gearing, or would it fall too far off the powerband between 2nd and 3rd?

[karl h]

i cant say anything about Marks gearing. these are just the thoughts for a well performing street engine. i would use 10:1 compression ratio
may car has a Porsche 5speed, so no falling off 

[mg]

rip Mark had close ratio gears in the SSB, at least it did the day I drove it.
If I was at 6k feet I'd keep stock gears and go small turbo and make my own atmosphere. 

[andrewlandon67]

rip Mark had close ratio gears in the SSB, at least it did the day I drove it.
If I was at 6k feet I'd keep stock gears and go small turbo and make my own atmosphere. 

Small turbos are interesting, but they lose so much of the character of a big IDA-fed street motor, and to do right, they end up costing way more.

[mg]

Then carbs with nitrous in 3rd and 4th to push it over 100mph. 
My 300hp 911 with FI was a dog at high altitude.
At Sea level it was much faster.

my old 11.70 109mph 180hp drag bug at sea level.
I expect it is faster now.
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[andrewlandon67]

Then carbs with nitrous in 3rd and 4th to push it over 100mph. 
My 300hp 911 with FI was a dog at high altitude.
At Sea level it was much faster.

my old 11.70 109mph 180hp drag bug at sea level.
I expect it is faster now.
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I've actually considered just rebuilding my 1915 and dumping a big shot of giggle juice down it to get that same effect. I still might do it, it just depends on how much of a project I'm willing to make it. One thing I'm curious about is the weird lack of correlation between E/T and trap speed in bugs, your 11.70 at "only" 108 mph seems almost slow to me, was it just geared to get up to that speed as quickly as possible?

[Bill Schwimmer]

6000'.... thats going to be a tough one. I would error on the high side of compression, maybe 12:1?? If you take it to sea level you could add race gas.  Sort of the same big cam , big head , 2300cc combo that everybody has with 2 points higher compression. Use the 4:37 to get it moving , should be able to get it done. I always hated going to elevation. A 1000'  makes a difference , I could' nt imagine 6000'..

[andrewlandon67]

6000'.... thats going to be a tough one. I would error on the high side of compression, maybe 12:1?? If you take it to sea level you could add race gas.  Sort of the same big cam , big head , 2300cc combo that everybody has with 2 points higher compression. Use the 4:37 to get it moving , should be able to get it done. I always hated going to elevation. A 1000'  makes a difference , I could' nt imagine 6000'..

I'd be curious to see how that high of compression would work up here, most of what I've been around is fairly tame (9.5:1 or so) but most guys around who run much higher than that do mostly race gas. It's an interesting thought though, and I'm definitely getting pushed more to the big-cube side of things than trying to make something sub 2100ccs work that hard. I've also been curious to see what taking my bug as it is down to sea level would do, it's a pretty rowdy little car up here, and I know some cars with similar engines have gotten into the 13s fairly easy at CA elevation.

[mg]

Nice to see Bill comment.  
He is the king of lower compression pump gas very fast N/A street VWs.

If you lose 15% power at 6000 feet would it be like trying to go 115mph at sea level?
I've been to Bandimere nice track, at 6000 feet I'd go turbo or electric.  
Turbo saves money on expensive heads and radical cams and higher compression.
If I were in Denver I would turbo.
If I just wanted 100mph and did not care about ET, easy launch on street tires and try to get to 100 with 2nd and 3rd stock gears.
Or else you have to have slicks, close ratio gears and a strong N/A engine.
I'd pass on nitrous or fuel additives like propylene oxide.  

I did my 100mph passes with carbs, slicks and close ratio gears.
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[andrewlandon67]

Nice to see Bill comment.  
He is the king of lower compression pump gas very fast N/A street VWs.

If you lose 15% power at 6000 feet would it be like trying to go 115mph at sea level?
I've been to Bandimere nice track, at 6000 feet I'd go turbo or electric.  
Turbo saves money on expensive heads and radical cams and higher compression.
If I were in Denver I would turbo.
If I just wanted 100mph and did not care about ET, easy launch on street tires and try to get to 100 with 2nd and 3rd stock gears.
Or else you have to have slicks, close ratio gears and a strong N/A engine.
I'd pass on nitrous or fuel additives like propylene oxide.  

I did my 100mph passes with carbs, slicks and close ratio gears.
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Man, that's an awesome certificate to have, especially from Carlsbad! The biggest part of this whole train of thought for me has been the three-way battle between a fairly tame BIG cc engine (2300+) vs smaller, more high-strung compromise engine vs just going all-out and doing a high-strung big cc monster (2300ccs again, but 270*+ at .050) since I still want this to be a proper street car, not running race fuel or close gears and possibly even being able to run big diameter heater boxes still or take sizeable road trips. Maybe I'm being a bit to ambitious without wanting to run nitrous or a hairdryer, but I still think it might be worth the moonshot, even if it's just one pass on a good-air day with some slicks and everything not bolted down taken out of the car.

Turbos are cool, and I've considered going that route before, but they're just too much complexity for me, and I don't have Richie Webb or Steve Dalton levels of patience to get one dialled in on a big motor.

I agree, it's nice to see Bill and some of these other guys still kicking around here from time to time. It's a pretty big honor when they respond to my dumbass questions, that's for sure.