1700 engines back in the day

[nicolas]

the '1700'(69x88) and '1800'(74x88) engine seemed to be the mainstream engine in the 70's and early 80's (later the 88 pistons were swapped for 90.5), and i was thinking that it would be great to have some engines featured of those days. some specs, and impressions.
they were nice little selfbuild and a lot of fun, or not? i read stories about dailydriven cars with these engines in them and still make good tracktimes.(dave rhoads first engine, the rags to ripper report,bill schwimmers pepto and ragtop,...) although for me tracktimes are not the most important, but more the kick  that you could get out of these.
i know you build one, so tell me more about them. 

[maX cal-look]

Funny !
I speaked about with Jim other day in him shower !!     

Too early for me, I will build a 1679cc engin when I finish body paint in my 67 ...
So I will post on this topic just after that !
waiting,  I read with pleasure Yours experiences about this 'original' engin !

[maX cal-look]

 
65% with me .. hum hum .. 

[Sarge]

My progression went from 1500 w/ Zenith 32 NDIX to 1600 w/ Zenith 32 NDIX both with single ports and Engle 110 cam.  Next up, was an 1800 w/ Holly 300cfm Bug Spray and Engle 125 which suffered a broken (cast) crank after a short time.  Then, back to 1700cc w/ 300cfm Bug Spray and Engle 125 + close ratio gears (this was a bad combo as it was with single port heads...big time popping through the intake at 3800-4000rpm from too much cam overlap).  The next step was to add dual port heads ported by Ron Fleming and some Solex 40P11-4 carbs which got rid of the overlap problem and woke up the 125.  At the end of all the experimentation, I finally got some IDA's...  

[Rennsurfer]

I think us guys nowadays FORGET that the original DKP, DRF, etc guys from early 1970's etc... their hot rodded Bugs were their only modes of transportation!

Yep! Which was why I built my car with a 1700cc blueprinted & balanced engine, Engle 110 cam, and 40mm carbs coupled to a '67 transmission outta my friend's Ghia. It was my only car, reliable, and I drove all over the west coast. I was 17 when I bought my first car (same one) and the car was only 13 years old at the time in 1979. I had a little over $5,000 invested in my car after I was done building it. And keep in mind, I built my own engines, installed my own trans, painted the car in a friend's garage, and did 99% of the car myself. I had the interior done at a professional shop. So I saved a boatload of cash, I'm sure. Plus, my parts were all at wholesale because of the many shops where I worked. This is a good thread and makes a lotta sense.

When I tell the younger people, now, how most of our cars were built, they wonder why engines were smaller. That's why. I didn't get a second car till I was 20 yrs. old. Right after that, I started buying brand new cars. Funny, how some things evolve full circle. Now, I'm gonna build another Bug. Don't get me wrong... I knew a lotta people that built huge 48IDA engines and drove 'em all over the place. I always had/have a lotta respect for that.

Sheesh, if I tried to build that same car these days, I'd shudder to think how much it would cost. YIKES!

[Rick Meredith]

cool reply!

One thing I just realized, I didn't build my first big Weber motor until I had other cars to drive around in, besides my '67. I ended up with a 1970 Bus and a 1981 X19 Fiat to tool around in while my Bug became a prima donna.

Candy ass! 

My 67 started with a stock 1500 SP. I decided that I wanted to put Kadronuts on it. Well I dropped a washer down the intake and of course the intake valve was open. So I had to break the motor down. When it went back together, it was a 1641cc with ported SP heads, 009, Engle 110 full flow and the Kadronuts.

About a year later I ran across a deal that I couldn't pass up on some 48s so I had to put together a motor to use them. Same "H" case with a forged cw crank, VZ35 (might have been a 30) carillo rods, 010, Cima 90.5 ported dp heads and skat trak tall manifolds holding the 48s amd a fortuned 1 3/8 merged head with custom muffler.

And it was my daily driver!

[deano]

I can really relate to this thread, as I drove one of these combos for years; 1700cc, Engle 110, big intake valves, IDAs, 9.5:1 compression, 1-1/2 Berg exhaust, 010, etc. I just remembered that they did not offer 88Bs back then (at least by Kolbensmitty), so if you added a longer arm, which I did later on, it was spacer city. My 1835cc made more torque, but burned more oil. Imagine that? We called 88s.... skatey-eights.

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

cool reply!

One thing I just realized, I didn't build my first big Weber motor until I had other cars to drive around in, besides my '67. I ended up with a 1970 Bus and a 1981 X19 Fiat to tool around in while my Bug became a prima donna.

Candy ass! 

My 67 started with a stock 1500 SP. I decided that I wanted to put Kadronuts on it. Well I dropped a washer down the intake and of course the intake valve was open. So I had to break the motor down. When it went back together, it was a 1641cc with ported SP heads, Engle 110 full flow and the Kadronuts.

About a year later I ran across a deal that I couldn't pass up on some 48s so I had to put together a motor to use them. Same "H" case with a forged cw crank, VZ35 (might have been a 30) carillo rods. Cima 90.5 ported dp heads and skat trak tall manifolds holding the 48s.

And it was my daily driver!

Why did you take it apart Rick Hell I would have started up and gave it a 7000 Grand Rev or two and Blow it right out the Exhaust LMAO  it was only a 1500 single port?

[Rick Meredith]

cool reply!

One thing I just realized, I didn't build my first big Weber motor until I had other cars to drive around in, besides my '67. I ended up with a 1970 Bus and a 1981 X19 Fiat to tool around in while my Bug became a prima donna.

Candy ass! 

My 67 started with a stock 1500 SP. I decided that I wanted to put Kadronuts on it. Well I dropped a washer down the intake and of course the intake valve was open. So I had to break the motor down. When it went back together, it was a 1641cc with ported SP heads, Engle 110 full flow and the Kadronuts.

About a year later I ran across a deal that I couldn't pass up on some 48s so I had to put together a motor to use them. Same "H" case with a forged cw crank, VZ35 (might have been a 30) carillo rods. Cima 90.5 ported dp heads and skat trak tall manifolds holding the 48s.

And it was my daily driver!

Why did you take it apart Rick Hell I would have started up and gave it a 7000 Grand Rev or two and Blow it right out the Exhaust LMAO  it was only a 1500 single port?

Would've needed rebuilding one way or the other! 

[dyno don]

to this very day...for me one of the sweetest running 1700's  was the aronson/holmes  white ragtop engine...it was abused beyond normal conditions and neglected by the time  i had a chance to tune it/upon a fresh tune that thing ran like a bat out of hell...same combo as deano's engine/simple ...old school ...and just kept on running....

[Tony M]

Yes in the 70's i had a 69mm roller crank x 88mm ks - ported and big valve heads by R&R in napa - ran a single 48ida carb - that little motor was a screamer - cant remember what cam was in it right now - what a good running motor - wish i still had it - blown rod out the top of the case ended it.

[RhoadsVW]

My first engine I built was a 40horse with an 83mm "big bore" kit from Autohaus,with [counterbored by rimco]1500 sp heads,engle 110 cam,010 dizzy,300cfm holley bugspray with "custom shortened" isolated tube manifold,with an 4 bolt empi exhaust.
next came a 1700[69x88]engle 110,IDAs with stock dual port heads,just plunged the heads 0.100thou and it was good to go[picture number 18],then progressed to a 74x88 with an engle 125,same heads,deano pulley,IDAS again with S&S header with single glass pack [picture 2 & picture 12]

Then finally the current 82x88 motor   picture 13

Dave Rhoads

And i drove this everywhere,it was my only car until at least 1980,up to Northern California[Hayward,were i was born] and regularly San diego with all these engines whatever the compression was

[dyno don]

dave...you have always done bitchin engines that make horsepower and live..!!!

[Frenchy Dehoux]

     I just found this past weekend a set of EMPI 88 all aluminum barrels and pistons I had stashed away when I worked for Steve Tims. I have way to much junk laying around.

     Frenchy

[Zach Gomulka]

Sell them to me Frenchy. You know they will go to a good cause.

[nicolas]

same for me frenchy, i would love to take some of that stuff so you can overlook it all and not have to worry were you put all your stuff. just send a big container to belgium... 

what parts were the options for building these engines? i think 010 and 019 were common but when did the 009 come into play and i see powerpulley's. but on most engines today they are not run. but climatewise i think california is a one of the of the regions that could benefit most of the extra cooling of a stocksized pulley... did you use extra coolers, bigger oilpumps, ...

[maX cal-look]

nicolas, put a 010 in engin ( or 019 ) but a 009 

I have a engle 110 and engle 120 ( with rockets 1.25 ) , why everybody used engle 110
I think engle 120 is better but read everybody used engle 110 ... 

I following this post with big interest, thank's nicolas to open this one ! 

[nicolas]

well i ditched my 009 as well, but it seems that a lot of people ran the 009 insted of the 010 or 019. i know dave rhoads has one (009) and i also can run the 009 wth the red coil and a compufire without the balast resistor... just trying out different stuff. the 019 works great on a 1641.

 

[speedwell]

just off  topic    dave what the size of the front tyre used on those empi 5
rgd
fabs

[Diederick/DVK]

this pic is one of the best ever!!
i'm totally in love with it

[RhoadsVW]

just off  topic    dave what the size of the front tyre used on those empi 5
rgd
fabs

hi Fabian,they were 165/15s from Uniroyal

Dave Rhoads

[Diederick/DVK]

Wow, that sounds larger than it looks!!
Were those the tyres you used on the empi 5s in the first stage?
And what did you use in the back? 185R15?

[RhoadsVW]

Hi Nicolas: I ran the 010 early on because the 009's weren't out yet. Always had good luck with both. Always ran points!!!    Dave Rhoads

[nicolas]

Hi Nicolas: I ran the 010 early on because the 009's weren't out yet. Always had good luck with both. Always ran points!!!    Dave Rhoads

thanks

i have heard that points can work as good as the petronics or compufire and even have the benefit to be 'dialled in' better. as the gap will retard or accelerate the timing as well. i had to ask as i see that your car runs a 009 for a long time now and a 009 is still available,but 010's and 019 are getting very expensive and hard to find.

thanks for the great pics and comments.

regards

[C.O.R.]

Frenchy, which P & C EMPI 88's?  Just curious. 

Mahalo (thanks), Frank
Castagnetti Ohana Racing
Honolulu and Hilo

[Bewitched666]

Nice topic,reminds me of my first 1700cc engine.

[Torben Alstrup]

My 1990 callook engine was # 3 in a row of a learning curve 1680 cc. Ported stock valve cylinderheads with the usual improvements, 9 - 1 CR. Camshaft was a 294 ish, made by a local cam grinder. Agressive ramps and lots of torque, but a little rough on the valve train. Ignition was a modified stock 205 unit with Alfa Romeo points. Carbs were a set of very rare Weber 38 DCN. Exhaust a 1½" S&S dual quiet pack (Great sound btw) 106 hp @ 5500 rpm.
Gave me lots of fun.
T

[deano]

Back in the "day" a lot of 1700cc were built in and around the Fleming & Aronson camp. At that time, the one that sticks out the most was bullt by Mike Billings, who put together a 1700cc with an Engle 125, 10:0 compression, Fleming heads, 48IDAs and 1-1/2 merged collector. That engine on F&A's dyno, no fan belt or stinger made 128hp, compared to mine at 122hp and several others in the 120-125hp range.

[Diederick/DVK]

wow, a 1700 with a w125 cam.
that must be pretty high strung, right? a bear to drive on the streets i suppose

[Tom G.]

My first engine I built was a 40horse with an 83mm "big bore" kit from Autohaus,with [counterbored by rimco]1500 sp heads,engle 110 cam,010 dizzy,300cfm holley bugspray with "custom shortened" isolated tube manifold,with an 4 bolt empi exhaust.
next came a 1700[69x88]engle 110,IDAs with stock dual port heads,just plunged the heads 0.100thou and it was good to go[picture number 18],then progressed to a 74x88 with an engle 125,same heads,deano pulley,IDAS again with S&S header with single glass pack [picture 2 & picture 12]

Then finally the current 82x88 motor   picture 13

Dave Rhoads

And i drove this everywhere,it was my only car until at least 1980,up to Northern California[Hayward,were i was born] and regularly San diego with all these engines whatever the compression was

Hi
Do you know which size of vents were in the 48 IDAs with stock valves (35,5x32) heads...? 37mm or smaller? Because i am thinking about to jet with 37 vents or is it better to go with smaller sized vents..my engine is 1955ccm (90,5x76)with good flow ported stock valved heads, 9,3:1 compression, German cam (324°)..125 HP 6100 upm....

Thanks
Bye
Tom