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Author Topic: What the F !!!  (Read 12146 times)
SlingShot
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« on: June 21, 2008, 21:17:01 pm »

Dear "THE LOUNGE"
Alright I'm Fed Up!!! My Single cab has type3 rear brakes, about 1000mi into getting the truck on the road I notice a funny clunking sound when I take off from a stop. Further investigation reveals the rear axle nuts backed off, drums are loose, splines are junk. Ok maybe they didn't get torqued enough. I get another set of good used drums, I turn them, drill them for studs etc. All is good....NOT. The truck sees daily driving and I have taken two long trips to Cali (Bug-IN and Classic) pushing a total of 2000mi. I had a flat rear tire a couple of days after the Classic so I have been showing off my spare for a week now ( It's a total bitch putting the rear wheels on). And I notice my piece of shit axle nut is loose again "this is bull shit" I tell my self. The last drums I put on had to be torqued enough! I had a 3/4 drive breaker bar which is about 18" long and then I put my jack handle  (4ft long!) over that for some more torque, plus my 200 lbs fat ass jumping on the end of it. Not sure what the spec is  but it had to be at least 250 ft lbs of torque. I can't keep buying $100.00 brake drums every 3000 mi, so any one else experienced this frustrating incident? Please help!
Sincerely,
FED UP & PISSED OFF IN ARIZONA
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richie
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 21:42:15 pm »

Assuming you are putting the split pin in the axle nut after you do it up how is it coming undone? is it something else wearing or stretching allowing some free play?

Oh and i am not exactly sure on the math here but 200lbs/ft[you] times say a 5 ft bar is 1000lbs/ft so maybe you are over tightening it and stretching the axle end or crushing the drum or spacers?


cheers richie
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.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 22:07:03 pm »

I agree with Richie, I don't see how the nuts could "back off" if the cotter pins were  in place.
It's possible, since you haven't been able to verify the torque with a torque wrench, that they really weren't tight enough.
So even though a cotter pin was in place, the drum still had "wiggle room" ?
 Huh
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SlingShot
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2008, 22:11:25 pm »

Yes the split/cotter pin is still in place but the nut is LOOSE Huh Not sure but I think the pin is streching a bit. When I tighten the nut, the nut is tight, drum is tight ect. It just loosens up, with the pin in, it obviously can't turn much, but it must because it is loose as a goose every time. Just to mention the axles are Sway Away. Also my buddy ASSHULL had this problem on an IRS Beetle and it turned out to be broken rear axle bearings. My axle don't move side to side or up and down, it does however move in and out 3/16" or so.
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nicolas
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2008, 22:25:17 pm »

if the pin is in the nut there is actually no way that the nut can move. even if it is not torqued down that much it can not move. try looking at the shims and bearings, maybe those are broken or are the wrong size... if the spacer is the small on you wont be able to torque the drums fully and they'll have some play which can lead to the problem. i know IRS and swingaxles on a type3 use different spacers... just a thought.
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richie
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 22:43:39 pm »

Yes the split/cotter pin is still in place but the nut is LOOSE Huh Not sure but I think the pin is streching a bit. When I tighten the nut, the nut is tight, drum is tight ect. It just loosens up, with the pin in, it obviously can't turn much, but it must because it is loose as a goose every time. Just to mention the axles are Sway Away. Also my buddy ASSHULL had this problem on an IRS Beetle and it turned out to be broken rear axle bearings. My axle don't move side to side or up and down, it does however move in and out 3/16" or so.

On the axle at the end of the splines is a raised area which has a bevelled end which sits against a spacer which has a matching bevelled end,then the bearing,then a shim,then a small o ring fits against this,then the outer spacer which has a reccess for the o ring to sit inside,then the oil slinger,alstly the drum,it should be torqued to 217lbs/ft

Do you have everything in this order?if so maybe you have the wrong spacers or the wrong way round?or the wrong length axles?

Are you using all type 3 parts? backing plates,bearing retainers,brake shoes,etc  I assume this is a straight axle conversion?
cheers richie
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deano
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 23:08:41 pm »

I don't know if this has been covered yet, but I have noticed than many of the present, new, $4 axle nuts that are now being sold are not flat or machined concentric. That is, they do not sit flush with the brake drum snout. You can tighten them down until the cows come home, but when you're done, you can still see some daylight under one side. I had to go through a handful of axle nuts before I found a pair that were decent. Try taking them on a belt sander before bolting them down. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 23:56:13 pm by deano » Logged

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Hotrodvw
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 23:55:08 pm »

Maybe I missed where you said this, but what are you using to torque the nuts down?  If the nuts come up to full torque and the pin doesn't line up in the axle holes, don't back it off to get the pin in, go tighter.  OEM axle nuts are the way to go....no extra day light.   Wink  OEM or high quality after market drums are a plus too.   Wink
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Lee.C
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 02:03:16 am »

I don't know if this has been covered yet, but I have noticed than many of the present, new, $4 axle nuts that are now being sold are not flat or machined concentric. That is, they do not sit flush with the brake drum snout. You can tighten them down until the cows come home, but when you're done, you can still see some daylight under one side. I had to go through a handful of axle nuts before I found a pair that were decent. Try taking them on a belt sander before bolting them down. Just a thought.

Agreed on the "Cheap" axle nuts theroy - I brought  a BRAND NEW axle nut and when I went to "torque" it up it would not go tight  Angry once I removed it it was clear to see that the material they had used for the nut was about as strong/tough as BUTTER! the threads had completly gone, luckily the axle was fine so I just reused an ORIGINAL VW nut, BEWARE OF CHEAP CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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SlingShot
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 03:14:02 am »

Yes the split/cotter pin is still in place but the nut is LOOSE Huh Not sure but I think the pin is streching a bit. When I tighten the nut, the nut is tight, drum is tight ect. It just loosens up, with the pin in, it obviously can't turn much, but it must because it is loose as a goose every time. Just to mention the axles are Sway Away. Also my buddy ASSHULL had this problem on an IRS Beetle and it turned out to be broken rear axle bearings. My axle don't move side to side or up and down, it does however move in and out 3/16" or so.

On the axle at the end of the splines is a raised area which has a bevelled end which sits against a spacer which has a matching bevelled end,then the bearing,then a shim,then a small o ring fits against this,then the outer spacer which has a reccess for the o ring to sit inside,then the oil slinger,alstly the drum,it should be torqued to 217lbs/ft

Do you have everything in this order?if so maybe you have the wrong spacers or the wrong way round?or the wrong length axles?

Are you using all type 3 parts? backing plates,bearing retainers,brake shoes,etc  I assume this is a straight axle conversion?
cheers richie

I believe all is in order. All the parts are type 3, except maybe the spacer, and axle nut Wink Would a type 3 spacer be different? I did notice the face of the nut was a little chewed up so I will true them up when I get new drums. And I did not back off the nut to line up the slot to the hole, that's a no no. Maybe one upside to this whole thing is I'm going to ditch the studded drums. It just takes too much damn work to get the rear wheel on and off. So I will end up using flat 4 lug bolts should cut my wheel RR time 10 fold Smiley
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Shubee2 (DSK)
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 03:16:57 am »

If you take the Axle nut off can you rock the drum on the Axle? what happens sometimes when the Drum is loose it is constantly moving on the axle splines it can wear the splines on the axle it happen's more often with German Drums because the metal is harder then the cheap repops that wear the splines in the drums are you useing early or late axle nuts? I Use the Late German Axle nuts on Everything, the late nuts have the flanged washer built in also if you useing the early axle nuts they have no built in washer and when loose it tears up the snout of the Drum.which makes them come loose
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 06:01:06 am »

I've had this happen to me a few times and it turned out to be the wheel bearings each time.
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SlingShot
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 06:29:01 am »

I've had this happen to me a few times and it turned out to be the wheel bearings each time.

Just to clear it up, The Single Cab does have a straight axle conversion.  I can't accept the fact that the bearings could be bad, the trans has 6000 miles (ish) on it! New parts the whole jar of jam. These were not hard miles, I took it out racing made 6 pases, I can count the burnouts I've done on my two hands. Oh yeah, it has a 1600cc in it, maybe making on a good day 80 horse. There would have to be something really wrong to break BOTH bearings, correct?
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Lee.C
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 06:30:01 am »

I've had this happen to me a few times and it turned out to be the wheel bearings each time.

Agreed I have had LOADS of trouble with my rear bearing this year  Roll Eyes Smiley
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JS
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 06:48:29 am »

Happened to me once, repro axle nut was to blame.
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Bruce
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 09:11:34 am »

.... I have noticed than many of the present, new, $4 axle nuts that are now being sold are not flat or machined concentric.
And people wonder why I prefer to dig in the greasy boxes at the swap meets.....

.....  I can't accept the fact that the bearings could be bad, the trans has 6000 miles (ish) on it!
Are they "CHINA" bearings?  If they are, I could believe it.  The only thing I will put under my nuts are FAGs.

I would look at all the spacers to see if they are pounded.  Genuine VW ones are hardened steel.  I bet some aftermarket junk parts are not.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 09:14:07 am by Bruce » Logged
SlingShot
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 11:18:39 am »

  The only thing I will put under my nuts are FAGs.

Thanks for the advice Bruce Cheesy
Sorry I have a dirty mind.
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deano
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 12:36:31 pm »

  The only thing I will put under my nuts are FAGs.

Another Classic forum saying....
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 12:46:53 pm »

i had this same problem with a single cab,strangely enough, that had a straight axle conversion by a so called pro, they had neglected to fit the spacer that goes behind the bearing ( the thin one that goes on BEFORE the bearing) so that no matter how much you tighten up the nut all it did was drag the axle out of the box until it bottomed out on the backside of the bearing, once they were fitted no more problem!

regards andy
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L.B.C.R.
SlingShot
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2008, 02:43:28 am »

I will be buying repro type 3 rear drums, and hopefully we have a answer in the next week or so. Thanks for your input guys.
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stealth67vw
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2008, 04:08:22 am »

Those damn axle seal kits come with a thin shim and they are f@%&ing garbage. My friend Tim put a new Mike Collins built transaxle in his 1965Single cab with a straight axle conversion the night before a Sacramento show. I personally torqued the drums to 250+. We get 5 miles from Sacramento fully loaded for the swap meet and the passenger side rear wheel passes us as we skid to a stop. I recovered the wheel after 2 cars hit it and inside the hub cap (still attached to the wheel) was the cotter pin and axle nut. So after getting it to Sac and running into Mike Collins, he asked if we used the shitty shims that came in the axle seal kit and of coarse we said yes. He told us after a few miles the shim will squeeze out like toothepaste and the nut looses torque. It made sense to us. So after we got the single cab towed back home, we tore into it and sure enough the shims were squished thinner on both sides.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 04:29:35 am by stealth67vw » Logged

John Bates
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Bruce
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2008, 04:12:19 am »

Those damn axle seal kits come with a thin shim and they are f@%&ing garbage.
Wow!
Can you identify which kit has the crappy shim so we can all avoid it?
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stealth67vw
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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 04:28:11 am »

Those damn axle seal kits come with a thin shim and they are f@%&ing garbage.
Wow!
Can you identify which kit has the crappy shim so we can all avoid it?
If I remember correct (it happened in 1993) Sabo brand seal kits. If you take a OE VW shim and drop it, it sounds solid and heavy. The Sabo shim sounds like dropping a piece of tin foil.
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John Bates
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Lee.C
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 09:30:28 am »

I have just had to remove and refit my rear seals 5 TIMES to get them to seal fully - DAM CRAPPY REPROS Angry
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2008, 09:43:29 am »

as long as there fitted correctly, repro seals are fine, most of the leaking ones i've seen have been put back on in the wrong order. get a mr torque tool to do up the hubnuts, it's soooo easy with one of these Grin





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Lee.C
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2008, 09:58:59 am »

as long as there fitted correctly, repro seals are fine, most of the leaking ones i've seen have been put back on in the wrong order. get a mr torque tool to do up the hubnuts, it's soooo easy with one of these Grin







Don't worry I was not refering to your companys items - I was talking about Crappy&Rubbish ones, oh sorry German&swedish Wink Smiley

I have also found it depends on which "Batch" they have in at the time, the first one I got was really high quality then all the others were rubbish  Roll Eyes Smiley

Also that tool was abit expensive for me at the time so I got the cheap one you hit with a BIG hammer  Grin
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nicolas
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2008, 10:14:16 am »

I will be buying repro type 3 rear drums, and hopefully we have a answer in the next week or so. Thanks for your input guys.

make sure they are round, so you might have to get them machined before you even mount them. i have done it to mine. otherwise the brakeshoes rub, but only at some places... so that is again an extra cost. it just never ends with the repro stuff.
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danny gabbard
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2008, 04:07:58 am »

is the snout on the type 3 drum the same as the original one? sounds like thickness problem somewere maybe? is the nut hitting the bottom of axle threads before seating on drum? just questions ! I'm not there to see what going on.
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SlingShot
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2008, 04:33:48 am »

is the snout on the type 3 drum the same as the original one? sounds like thickness problem somewere maybe? is the nut hitting the bottom of axle threads before seating on drum? just questions ! I'm not there to see what going on.
I'm using short axles so I have to shave 1/2 inch off the snout of the drum, or there wouldn't be enough thread on the axle for the nut.
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SlingShot
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2008, 05:27:24 am »

Hey guys, Just wanted to update everyone on my problem. I replaced an original German type 3 drum for a Brazilian one.  I bought the sweet torque mister tool, Torqued to the stock spec, everything in order, blah, blah, blah. Everything seemed to be working fine until tonight when I was on my way home from a show in Phoenix (100 mi drive) , I first noticed it when I was still in Phoenix, I would turn right and I could hear and feel a clunk?? Kept driving.....Long story short, 9 miles from home, a stripped drum. Can't go anywhere, had to call the tow truck.. DAMN. Haven't torn into it yet but I assume it's the Brazilian drum. I will let you know what I find out.

My question is to those who have the CB wide 5 rear disk. How much, if any offset do they add? I need them to come out in the same location as the type 3 rear brakes. How does their (CB) kit perform? Let me know guys. Thanks

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