Wings/aerofoils Are they really needed? and if so when?

[Tekken]

Great videos Richie,thanks!

[Berger]

Talking about wings and splitters...: http://hellafunctional.com/?p=369  

[Berger]

Here is a idea to think about... 

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[richie]

Here is a idea to think about... 

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Nice really subtle  

cheers richie

[Pas]

So on the subject of splitters/front chin spoilers. I wonder how effective the old 70's affairs made by companies like Kamei etc. are?

Does any info/data exist for these? and would they be any use for a drag racing application?

Something to think about.

[BeetleBug]

So on the subject of splitters/front chin spoilers. I wonder how effective the old 70's affairs made by companies like Kamei etc. are?

Does any info/data exist for these? and would they be any use for a drag racing application?
Something to think about.

Look at my reply earlier in this thread where I have enclosed a tech sheet for the Kamei front spoiler.

[Pas]

So on the subject of splitters/front chin spoilers. I wonder how effective the old 70's affairs made by companies like Kamei etc. are?

Does any info/data exist for these? and would they be any use for a drag racing application?
Something to think about.

Look at my reply earlier in this thread where I have enclosed a tech sheet for the Kamei front spoiler.

Thanks BB

I have just re-read this thread and couldn't find your post

[kingsburgphil]

Wings/airfoils.  Are they really needed?

The poor soul driving this car "turned turtle" at 180 mph. Though I suspect he rotated and was wheels up long before that point 

[BeetleBug]

So on the subject of splitters/front chin spoilers. I wonder how effective the old 70's affairs made by companies like Kamei etc. are?

Does any info/data exist for these? and would they be any use for a drag racing application?
Something to think about.

Look at my reply earlier in this thread where I have enclosed a tech sheet for the Kamei front spoiler.

Thanks BB

I have just re-read this thread and couldn't find your post

 Page 8, scroll down. 

[BeetleBug]

Wings/airfoils.  Are they really needed?

The poor soul driving this car "turned turtle" at 180 mph. Though I suspect he rotated and was wheels up long before that point 

And if I'm not mistaken the Black Widow ended up as a wreck after a terrible crash. The driver survived and there is a picture of him standing next to the wreck with a big smile on his face. Probably smiling because he realised how lucky he was...

[Pas]

So on the subject of splitters/front chin spoilers. I wonder how effective the old 70's affairs made by companies like Kamei etc. are?

Does any info/data exist for these? and would they be any use for a drag racing application?
Something to think about.

Look at my reply earlier in this thread where I have enclosed a tech sheet for the Kamei front spoiler.

Thanks BB

I have just re-read this thread and couldn't find your post

 Page 8, scroll down. 

Thanks BB, the German confused me!

[Tekken]

Look at the front wheels, expesially towards the end of the run.I think the car is lifting, what do you think?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5d4bcRA4Odw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/5d4bcRA4Odw</a>

[henk]

could this be,because of the parachute that is deployed?

henk!!!

[BeetleBug]

could this be,because of the parachute that is deployed?

henk!!!

Or 1025 whp and too much down force at the rear?

[Tekken]

You can see the car turn left before the line.Do you think it's loose in the rear, or is it the front starting to float..?? To me it looks like he then pulls the chute and you see the front come back down.The thing is I have experienced the car du a turn like this many times myself,expesially with the old car.The speed has been slower like 235-250km/h but with really light car with no weight at the front.Could also see it on the linear shock sensors that it was lifting a lot.This VWP car is almost 1000kg with driver, but also higher speed like 280-300km/t.
I know the big HP numbers, but still don't think that is the problem.
Talked to Eric/Red Baron.He uses a splitter type fibre glass front,but don't have this problem.The car is actually lower in the front at top speed.

[BeetleBug]

Thanks for sharing Stian,

I do believe Kris mentioned that it started to drift to the left due to side wind. If it had more down force at the front it would perhaps stayed on the track? I find this very interesting. Perhaps you can share what you`re log is showing you? Does your car lift at top speed? If so, how much?

-BB-

You can see the car turn left before the line.Do you think it's loose in the rear, or is it the front starting to float..?? To me it looks like he then pulls the chute and you see the front come back down.The thing is I have experienced the car du a turn like this many times myself,expesially with the old car.The speed has been slower like 235-250km/h but with really light car with no weight at the front.Could also see it on the linear shock sensors that it was lifting a lot.This VWP car is almost 1000kg with driver, but also higher speed like 280-300km/t.
I know the big HP numbers, but still don't think that is the problem.
Talked to Eric/Red Baron.He uses a splitter type fibre glass front,but don't have this problem.The car is actually lower in the front at top speed.

[Tekken]

I had linear sensors on the RPM logger in the previous racecar.I don't remember how many mm, but when I passed 220-230km/h on full throttle the car had the same height as standing still.From there to 250km/h the car keept lifting and lifting.At approx +240km/h the car could suddeny turn to one side, had to pull the chute right away and step of the pedal to get it straight.

An example from SCC 2009.Look at the end of the run, and you'll see the car starting to float and suddenly turn to the right.Not a good feeling in +230km/h..

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Nn0b70Gma5A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Nn0b70Gma5A</a>

But this car had a really low weight, maybe 700kg with driver and no weight at all on the front wheels.
We added a lot of weight on the new car to get a better balanse.The plan is to install linear sensors before the season starts so we can see if the weight and wing makes any difference.We are also thinking about making a small splitter.The car now is really different to drive with the better weight distribution, feels a lot more stabile and safe.

[BeetleBug]

Dam! Thanks for sharing Stian and please play safe!!

[richie]

Kris's car is a strange one,until he posted that video I had never noticed how much it lifts at the front,under power there can be no steering possible in at least the first 3 gears. But the car has a huge amount of weight in the front,this obviously isnt enough to overcome the torque that the engine is pushing through the chassis trying to lift the front.It does look like some front downforce would help,the front end on his car is also an unusual shape,but guessing on aerodynamics on our slower cars is risky enough,but with his mph would you really want to try something new that may or may not work?
I will also try the height sensors this year,but I will definatley be adding a front splitter/spoiler proberly before the 1st outing and have a couple of other ideas to help air escape from underneath and inside the wings[fenders]


Stian,that video looks just like a pan car with to much power and not enough track

[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] How porsche do it on a 911 cabrio
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] can we apply anything here to a beetle?

[tikimadness]

I'm not sure if this contributes to the topic but what about making holes in the backside of the front fenders. Some one asked me if I was going to add them.To be honest I don't like the look of it but does anyone know if it actually works?

Michael

[richie]

Micheal,

this is something I wondered about as well,when you cut away alot of bodywork from under the front[even more so on a tube car with flip front] and dont have any device to stop the air getting under there[splitter or similar] there has to be alot of trapped air under there trying to get out,and consequently causing lift,as I have some extra wings/fenders available, I will use them to experiment with,I also dont like the look of plain holes,my idea is to make some trap doors in the back of the wings,hinged shut normally,try to make them blend in as well as I can so they are not noticable when the car is just parked and use the go pro camera to video what happens on a pass
If they do nothing then I will just put the other wings/fenders back on.

Keep the ideas coming

cheers richie

[Black Sheep]

Bernie Ecclestone had a good idea back in 78 with the Gordon Murray designed The Brabham BT46B Formula One racing car,

It didn't go down very well with the rest of formula that race which it won and was banned for the next race .
It was claimed by the Brabham team to be there to be an aid to the heat exchangers , but it proved to be a bloody good way to hold you car to the track .
 Not something I'd bolt to the back of my own car but I the theory is sound , think about it in a car with the rear fire wall removed and paneled out as many race cars are just add the fan and a bit of rubber skit around the pan and you have hoover bug   keep the engine cool too  after your run

[Rick Meredith]

Bernie Ecclestone had a good idea back in 78 with the Gordon Murray designed The Brabham BT46B Formula One racing car,

It didn't go down very well with the rest of formula that race which it won and was banned for the next race .
It was claimed by the Brabham team to be there to be an aid to the heat exchangers , but it proved to be a bloody good way to hold you car to the track .
 Not something I'd bolt to the back of my own car but I the theory is sound , think about it in a car with the rear fire wall removed and paneled out as many race cars are just add the fan and a bit of rubber skit around the pan and you have hoover bug   keep the engine cool too   after your run

Who jacked it from Jim Hall 

[Neil Davies]

Micheal,

this is something I wondered about as well,when you cut away alot of bodywork from under the front[even more so on a tube car with flip front] and dont have any device to stop the air getting under there[splitter or similar] there has to be alot of trapped air under there trying to get out,and consequently causing lift,as I have some extra wings/fenders available, I will use them to experiment with,I also dont like the look of plain holes,my idea is to make some trap doors in the back of the wings,hinged shut normally,try to make them blend in as well as I can so they are not noticable when the car is just parked and use the go pro camera to video what happens on a pass
If they do nothing then I will just put the other wings/fenders back on.

Keep the ideas coming

cheers richie

Back in 2001 or so when I was doing my post-grad teacher training I was sharing a house with an undergraduate on an aerospace degree. He raised that very same question about a belly pan under the front end but his thought was that the trapped air is "less bad" than a smooth belly pan. Yes, it's a disruption to smooth flowing air, but with the curved top to the Beetle, a flat bottom would make it the whole car into a wing profile and generate more lift. The biggest problems that he saw were the wheels - he said that he'd fit a type of Moon disc inside and out of the wheels, and even try to enclose the wheels with cycle fenders within the Beetle arches to allow the air moving through to remain as un-disturbed as possible.
I told him I was only running high 15's at the time and so it didn't affect me...

[richie]

Even the quickest cars get updates,Kris's car from this weekends vegas meet had these mods added,the 1st car I saw this done to was Frank Estradas turbo car,I have seen it on some VW Pro stock cars as well and have considered it for mine,something for the winter maybe as i have a spare pair of front wings to try on



[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] front fender vent

[Airspeed]

Most DTM and other circuit racers all use that too. I was wondering why no-one in the drag scene used this. Cool pic and well spotted!

I used some lower placed vents in the front wings this year for the first time like some others have done with round holes. Hard to notice the difference without actually measuring pressure in the wings. The higher placed vent on Kris' front fender seems more in line what track racers do though.

[Martin]

Do we know if there is any positive pressure in that area?

thinking out loud i supose you could measure the preshure with a map sensor and place the tube in various points around the area. but i dont think this would give you a difinative result you may fined pockets of pressure hi and low....

The front susoension sensors will give you a reading to see if theres any lift created by positive pressure trapped unter there.

But I keep going back to, the only definative answer, is to get to the Wind Tunnel and test it. Then you would know if there was any more drag created by trapped air...

The Wind tunnal costs 4.5K last time i got a price from MIRA for half a days usage. Put it into perspective it can produce cheep HP via less drag and you'll have a good handle on what the cars going to be like at 160 - 180 mph




Martin....... 

(is it easter yet?)

[AntLockyer]

Looking at the model in a wind tunnel video I'd be inclined to put a spoiler on the front of the roof above the windscreen at a similar rake to the screen. You'd need to play with the height but essentially you just want to unstick the air in the same way you saw when the roof was missing.

By spoiler I mean a device to disrupt air, just a flat piece sticking up.

I know nothing about aerodynamics BTW just applying common sense to what the video showed.

[richie]

Most DTM and other circuit racers all use that too. I was wondering why no-one in the drag scene used this. Cool pic and well spotted!

I used some lower placed vents in the front wings this year for the first time like some others have done with round holes. Hard to notice the difference without actually measuring pressure in the wings. The higher placed vent on Kris' front fender seems more in line what track racers do though.

That looks really neat,nice idea

cheers richie

[Fiatdude]

Here is a idea to think about... 

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I had another picture of that car at speed and the tires are so compressed that it looks almost like the car is running on the rims
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My buddy has a NASCAR road course car here are some pictures of its aeros







and another friends car

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