First stroker build

[bugnut68]

Here's my thoughts, as it will be a street/bracket racing combo, and I'm pretty well set on 90.5's as I have the cylinders and the case is already bored for them.

2110 or 2165cc
(either 82 or 84mm stroke)
Engle 120 or 130 cam
8.5 or 9:1 compression
straight cut gears
40x35.5mm heads (probably 044's, but haven't decided yet, will be shopping at Sac!)
full full oiling and filter, of course
doghouse cooler
dual 44IDF Webers or 45 DRLA Dells, if I can find them
Berg or Scat 1.5 Qt sump
CB unitech stroker rods or else rebuilt stock German rods with ARP or other quality bolts (any advice?)
power pulley (not a daily driver)
welded doghouse fan
chromeoly pushrods
stock 1.1 German VW rockers
dual valve springs
1-5/8" exhaust

Any thoughts or opinions on this set up?  I welcome any and all suggestions!  Have at it!

[Rennsurfer]

That's my idea of a mild street engine and what my goal is to build for my street car. One big difference is that I'm using stock stroke. Sounds like you'll be having some fun with that.

[Jim Ratto]

Here's my thoughts, as it will be a street/bracket racing combo, and I'm pretty well set on 90.5's as I have the cylinders and the case is already bored for them.

2110 or 2165cc
(either 82 or 84mm stroke)
Engle 120 or 130 cam
8.5 or 9:1 compression
straight cut gears
40x35.5mm heads (probably 044's, but haven't decided yet, will be shopping at Sac!)
full full oiling and filter, of course
doghouse cooler
dual 44IDF Webers or 45 DRLA Dells, if I can find them
Berg or Scat 1.5 Qt sump
CB unitech stroker rods or else rebuilt stock German rods with ARP or other quality bolts (any advice?)
power pulley (not a daily driver)
welded doghouse fan
chromeoly pushrods
stock 1.1 German VW rockers
dual valve springs
1-5/8" exhaust

Any thoughts or opinions on this set up?  I welcome any and all suggestions!  Have at it!

Should make a nice, solid driver. I would probably open the pipe a little to 1-3/4" in the interest of cooling. The 120 will be really mild in that big of a motor. The 130 will run better with that big of cc and compression like you're talking. I did an 84 x 94 for a guy about 10 yr ago, with 40 x 37 VW heads, 8.4:1 and a 130-ish cam and it was a total torque monster. TW on here can attest. I thought it was a great street motor, was in a super heavy 73 'Vert with 3.88 R&P... needed the grunt. Guy was scared to drive it hard though 

[bugnut68]

Are there better cam grinds out there other than the ones I suggested?  Just curious... I'm kind of trying to use some of the existing parts in my current stash.
Any idea as to what kind of power increase I can expect over my current combo (1776, semi hemi stock valve heads, 1.25 rockers, Engle 100, 7.8:1, 1-3/8" exhaust with single QP, dual Kadrons).  Driving like a wuss off the line, my best ET with no fan belt has been an 11.19 in the 1/8 mile at 61 miles per hour.  Usually I'm running 11.30s and up  with the belt on  and equally soft launches, as I drive it to and from the track.

[stealth67vw]

82 x 90.5 is 2110, 84 x 90.5 is 2161. 78 x 94 is 2165.

I would not use stock rods on anything over 78mm. 82mm use 5.4 rods or 84 use 5.5 length. I would use the Engle 120 depending on how wild or mild the heads will be. The rest of the combo sounds solid.

Do you have 90.5 B pistons yet? If not you might as well go with 94s and have the barrels turned down to 90.5 size.

[Zach Gomulka]

Turn down the bases of some 94's to get them in that 90.5 case. Bigger bores let your heads breathe! If you don't have a crank yet, you can't beat a DPR 78.4 for the price. I recommend that size just because if you go any bigger with welding up a stock crank there isn't much left of the original forging, just my opinion. And it will work great with stock clearanced rods, not too much machining/clearancing needed. Steve Tims stage 2 heads can't be beat for the price, either- my friends relatively modest 1915 did 13.8's through 3 gears, and I think it's because of the heads! Steve will probably recommend 42x37.5. 130 cam, stock rockers, sure. It's a cheap combo that should make great power, your lifter bores wont be thrilled though. 9-9.5:1. I'd search out a pair of Dell's, plugged idles in Webers suck! Bigger deep sump. I'd say you are right on the border of 1 5/8" vs. 1 3/4"

[Jim Ratto]

Are there better cam grinds out there other than the ones I suggested?  Just curious... I'm kind of trying to use some of the existing parts in my current stash.
Any idea as to what kind of power increase I can expect over my current combo (1776, semi hemi stock valve heads, 1.25 rockers, Engle 100, 7.8:1, 1-3/8" exhaust with single QP, dual Kadrons).  Driving like a wuss off the line, my best ET with no fan belt has been an 11.19 in the 1/8 mile at 61 miles per hour.  Usually I'm running 11.30s and up  with the belt on  and equally soft launches, as I drive it to and from the track.

Depends on the RPM range you want. The 120 is a good cam for 1800cc and under "hot" motors, good cam for mild drivers in 1900+. In your long stroke application, it will make torque, but will run out of steam up top. 6000rpm will probably be peak. If you want it to run from idle to 6000 cleanly, the 120 (or equivalent Web 110) will work. Personally, under 260' @ .050" in a stroker is boring. Over 270' and you have a wilder motor that wants revs.
The 125 Engle is a much better choice, in my opinion. It will run as low down as the 120 with the long crank, but give you a wilder ride up top. It is amazing how much of a dual personality cam the 125 is in a stroker. Sarge's car is a good example. Docile, quiet and very easy to drive sedately, yet, get on a freeway onramp and poke the gas and you're gone. My first stroker ran the 125, btw. It was a real fun driver, and was easy on parts.
Simple dual spring motor....
the 40mm intakes are going to work fine. It isn't so much valve diameter as it is how the air gets to the valve. If you open the valve up more (lift), you're giving the air a bigger window to get through too. I'd go 37.5 on exhaust, keep exh ports small, and run the 1-3/4 header.
In short, I am saying get ahold of Jeff Denham to do your heads.
So my suggestion, from experience, is 78mm crank (easier to put together, VW clearanced rods bolt on) x whatever bore you have, Engle 125 with 1.25 rockers, JEff Denham 40 x 37.5, Vw dual springs shimmed to your lift, 44mm+ twin 2bbl carbs, 9.0:1, full flow it, cool it, filter it... etc etc etc. To get 6500 revs out of it, depending on cc, you'll need at least a 38mm vent. Keep that in mind when looking for carbs. That is for 90.5 x 78
so if you go bigger, you'll need to shop for bigger vents.
I think a power band of 2000-6500 is ideal for a street motor. Parts last, and you'll be teasing the guys in V8's easy.
If you want something that's going to kill most everything else on 4 wheels, go for race gas motor. Run CR up over 12:1, FK89, 48IDAs and keep your floor jack handy.
Or if you want that ragged edge motor, the stroker with near 10:1 and the bite of the 86C Web with Denham's "street 44 x 37" heads (see louisb) is hard to beat.
Have fun,

[bugnut68]

Great info, thanks, Jim and all!  Will definitely print all of this off and keep it handy...

[javabug]

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.   

[Zach Gomulka]

On second thought, I do like the sound of a Engle 125 over the 130, for the combo I listed above.

[Jim Ratto]

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.   

it IS fun.  
Nothing quite like setting carbs after the cam's broken in, getting to hear the fresh motor chomping at the bit, just waiting for you to kick the throttles open and slingshot the car down the block. Your first spirited trip in the new stroker is like no other. You won't be ready for it... trust me. You'll come back wearing a perma grin. then you get to stand there with decklid open and gaze at the new, sparkling motor. Get to smell the fresh header paint cool, get to crawl around under car looking for any leaks, get to let it cool than run through valves (just to make sure all is cool in there)... get to drain new oil out and wonder how much crap is in it. Then you can clean all your tools and put them away all orderly and such, close garage up and go crack a cold beer. Then 15 min later you'll be back out in garage, door opened, staring at it again. Then you'll fire it up again and free rev it. Next you'll be back to ripping around the block. By now it's 1am.

[j-f]

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.   

it IS fun.  
Nothing quite like setting carbs after the cam's broken in, getting to hear the fresh motor chomping at the bit, just waiting for you to kick the throttles open and slingshot the car down the block. Your first spirited trip in the new stroker is like no other. You won't be ready for it... trust me. You'll come back wearing a perma grin. then you get to stand there with decklid open and gaze at the new, sparkling motor. Get to smell the fresh header paint cool, get to crawl around under car looking for any leaks, get to let it cool than run through valves (just to make sure all is cool in there)... get to drain new oil out and wonder how much crap is in it. Then you can clean all your tools and put them away all orderly and such, close garage up and go crack a cold beer. Then 15 min later you'll be back out in garage, door opened, staring at it again. Then you'll fire it up again and free rev it. Next you'll be back to ripping around the block. By now it's 1am.

Pure passion! 

[stealth67vw]

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.   

it IS fun.  
Nothing quite like setting carbs after the cam's broken in, getting to hear the fresh motor chomping at the bit, just waiting for you to kick the throttles open and slingshot the car down the block. Your first spirited trip in the new stroker is like no other. You won't be ready for it... trust me. You'll come back wearing a perma grin. then you get to stand there with decklid open and gaze at the new, sparkling motor. Get to smell the fresh header paint cool, get to crawl around under car looking for any leaks, get to let it cool than run through valves (just to make sure all is cool in there)... get to drain new oil out and wonder how much crap is in it. Then you can clean all your tools and put them away all orderly and such, close garage up and go crack a cold beer. Then 15 min later you'll be back out in garage, door opened, staring at it again. Then you'll fire it up again and free rev it. Next you'll be back to ripping around the block. By now it's 1am.

Pure passion! 

Carotica 

[bugnut68]

Man, now I'm REALLY excited to go to Sacramento at the end of the month...  For me, part of the fun is the planning stages.  It may take me two years or better to build, given my limited financial resources and time, but it'll be worth it.  Hee Hee!

[stealth67vw]

Ryan, I have a set of lightly used Mahle 94 B barrels and pistons. The barrels need honing and I have a new set of Mahle rings and spirol loc clips.The pistons have been balanced too. I got these from Ratto about 10 years ago and they have just sat. I can bring them to Sac or any SOVW meeting you come to. Lay-A-Way or bartering is available.

[Jim Ratto]

I may have a friend that needs $ that has some cranks and stuff laying around. Let me see if I can get ahold of him and see what he's got. I think he had couple of 84mm Chevy journal cranks.

Key thing with good street motor, aim for a wide usable powerband. I'm not just talking bottom end either. You'd be surprised how going to long stroke makes them so much more driveable, even with "so-called" extreme cam timing. You may think initially to err on the 110-120 side when doing a "street" motor, but what some don't realize is that yes you will have "bottom end" but you don't have a "wide" powerband, as the top end is not there. With a long stroke motor, (from experience), even the FK87 had acceptable manners down low. Sure, it really came alive up @ 5K+, but it was by all means "driveable" at all rpms. There is a limit though.
Just keep in mind that if you have bottom end, but you lose 2000rpm on top, you don't have as wide a powerband as a motor that pulls hard off idle and gets that extra 2K rpm.
260'-268' @ .050", provided you have the 'right' combo of stroke, heads, intake...bla bla bla... will do that.

[Fasterbrit]

even the FK87 had acceptable manners down low. Sure, it really came alive up @ 5K+, but it was by all means "driveable" at all rpms.

I agree with the FK 87 being a good all round cam in a well built motor. Built a couple of motors with 2276 cc, 44x37 and Ida's, 10:1 CR and have been able to cruise as low down as 2,000 rpm in top and spank the motor to 7 grand no probs. 12.4 second quarter mile times on radials in a street weight car, too!

[johnl]

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.   

it IS fun.  
Nothing quite like setting carbs after the cam's broken in, getting to hear the fresh motor chomping at the bit, just waiting for you to kick the throttles open and slingshot the car down the block. Your first spirited trip in the new stroker is like no other. You won't be ready for it... trust me. You'll come back wearing a perma grin. then you get to stand there with decklid open and gaze at the new, sparkling motor. Get to smell the fresh header paint cool, get to crawl around under car looking for any leaks, get to let it cool than run through valves (just to make sure all is cool in there)... get to drain new oil out and wonder how much crap is in it. Then you can clean all your tools and put them away all orderly and such, close garage up and go crack a cold beer. Then 15 min later you'll be back out in garage, door opened, staring at it again. Then you'll fire it up again and free rev it. Next you'll be back to ripping around the block. By now it's 1am.

I can completely relate to what Jim says about that first ride.  Years ago when I built my 78.4 Okrasa with 88's with 48's setting on top of those tall EMPI manifolds, the theory was first time out put your foot in it and if something was going to break it would happen then.  I did and it didn't. 

I can still feel the car pulling with those close ratios in 3rd and 4th to this day and that was only 38 years ago.  Using it daily then it became old rather fast, but I'm sure if you take your dose of medication ocasionally the thrill is still there.  For me currently it is our BMW M5 as there is no substiture for cubes and HP.

[bugnut68]

What's the advantage to Chevy journal'ed cranks over VW journals?  There's so much I need to learn and get schooled on, it's mind boggling!  I've never anything other than stock stroke engines, and my Engle 100'd 1776 with Kadrons is the biggest engine I've had so far. 

[Jim Ratto]

What's the advantage to Chevy journal'ed cranks over VW journals?  There's so much I need to learn and get schooled on, it's mind boggling!  I've never anything other than stock stroke engines, and my Engle 100'd 1776 with Kadrons is the biggest engine I've had so far. 

more room for crank and rods to swing.

[Jim Ratto]

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.   

it IS fun.  
Nothing quite like setting carbs after the cam's broken in, getting to hear the fresh motor chomping at the bit, just waiting for you to kick the throttles open and slingshot the car down the block. Your first spirited trip in the new stroker is like no other. You won't be ready for it... trust me. You'll come back wearing a perma grin. then you get to stand there with decklid open and gaze at the new, sparkling motor. Get to smell the fresh header paint cool, get to crawl around under car looking for any leaks, get to let it cool than run through valves (just to make sure all is cool in there)... get to drain new oil out and wonder how much crap is in it. Then you can clean all your tools and put them away all orderly and such, close garage up and go crack a cold beer. Then 15 min later you'll be back out in garage, door opened, staring at it again. Then you'll fire it up again and free rev it. Next you'll be back to ripping around the block. By now it's 1am.

I can completely relate to what Jim says about that first ride.  Years ago when I built my 78.4 Okrasa with 88's with 48's setting on top of those tall EMPI manifolds, the theory was first time out put your foot in it and if something was going to break it would happen then.  I did and it didn't. 

I can still feel the car pulling with those close ratios in 3rd and 4th to this day and that was only 38 years ago.  Using it daily then it became old rather fast, but I'm sure if you take your dose of medication ocasionally the thrill is still there.  For me currently it is our BMW M5 as there is no substiture for cubes and HP.

I often wonder what it must have been like for you "pioneers" the first time you guys got your big Weber motors in your cars and wooded the gas.
I bet you guys couldn't wait to get to your buddy's house to "show off"....hahahahaha 

Close ratio gears are fun, but get old FAST if you don't have a 5th gear. I lived with mine for about a year or so before I went back to stock ratios. I remember when I drove Gary Berg's car though for the first time, with the 5sp.... now that was nice. Not much rpm drop... it just went. Now if it only had some compression....

[johnl]

I often wonder what it must have been like for you "pioneers" the first time you guys got your big Weber motors in your cars and wooded the gas.

Well son, way back in '49 (that would be 1948 in the California Gold Rush Days) us "Pioneers" just told our team (of horses, usually 6 which was referred to as a "stroker") to STAND ON IT   

[62 Ragtop]

I often wonder what it must have been like for you "pioneers" the first time you guys got your big Weber motors in your cars and wooded the gas.

Well son, way back in '49 (that would be 1948 in the California Gold Rush Days) us "Pioneers" just told our team (of horses, usually 6 which was referred to as a "stroker") to STAND ON IT   

  .... That's one for the book! God I love this place! Keep it up John and Jim (and all the rest!)

cheers,

[Zach Gomulka]

What's the advantage to Chevy journal'ed cranks over VW journals?  There's so much I need to learn and get schooled on, it's mind boggling!  I've never anything other than stock stroke engines, and my Engle 100'd 1776 with Kadrons is the biggest engine I've had so far. 

more room for crank and rods to swing.

BUT it also makes for a weaker crank. Less cross section shared between the main and rod journals. Might not be an issue with your motor, but it's just something to think about.

[Jim Ratto]

What's the advantage to Chevy journal'ed cranks over VW journals?  There's so much I need to learn and get schooled on, it's mind boggling!  I've never anything other than stock stroke engines, and my Engle 100'd 1776 with Kadrons is the biggest engine I've had so far. 

more room for crank and rods to swing.

BUT it also makes for a weaker crank. Less cross section shared between the main and rod journals. Might not be an issue with your motor, but it's just something to think about.

would you use a VW journal 84mm crank Zach?

[johnl]

I often wonder what it must have been like for you "pioneers" the first time you guys got your big Weber motors in your cars and wooded the gas.

Well son, way back in '49 (that would be 1948 in the California Gold Rush Days) us "Pioneers" just told our team (of horses, usually 6 which was referred to as a "stroker") to STAND ON IT   

  .... That's one for the book! God I love this place! Keep it up John and Jim (and all the rest!)

cheers,

Book, would that be Keith's next offering???  Actually I meant to say 1849, but my fingers got happy and it came out 1948 which is okay, because I was alive then...........

[Zach Gomulka]

No, I wouldn't use an 84mm VW journal crank. The case would have to be clearanced far too much for my comfort. I was just giving him both sides of the story so he can find a happy medium

[bugnut68]

Now I'm all confoosed.  Ah well, I have plenty of time to research options.

[Jim Ratto]

Now I'm all confoosed.  Ah well, I have plenty of time to research options.

Hi, I called my guy that I thought had some cranks... they're all gone, but he turned me onto another guy. If he has something, I'll pm you his #.

My advice... keep things simple and moderate. Don't scan catalogs for the "extremes"....meaning specs (or prices).
Go in between, and keep it simple dude.
You'll be happy.

[Jim Ratto]

Now I'm all confoosed.  Ah well, I have plenty of time to research options.

Hi, I called my guy that I thought had some cranks... they're all gone, but he turned me onto another guy. If he has something, I'll pm you his #.

My advice... keep things simple and moderate. Don't scan catalogs for the "extremes"....meaning specs (or prices).
Go in between, and keep it simple dude.
You'll be happy.

turns out my next lead does have some stuff... I'll pm you his info. Have fun,
Jim