The Cal-look Lounge

I was wandering how to build a little vw powered dragster Gene Berg style. Rear engine, trans behind the driver.
How to design a frame and front and rear axle? Is front and rear rigid? or there should be some kind of suspension?
Besides it has to be as light as possible... Any ideas, pictures, drawing, whatever?

Hi Rebel,do you mean something like this?Then you should pm "ottobros" here on the lounge,
these guys build this dragster.....

Yeah, I've seen it at the EBI3, but did not know who's behind it.
Thanks, man!

BTW:

Does have anybody any info about the historic flat four powered dragsters?

 ::)

Fabian, there is a lot of info in the scans I've got from you of course :) 

I'm lookin for more technical data rather - more like how was the front axle made? How was the rear supesion engineered?
It is hard to guess from the pictures in old magazines :)

PS: Fabs, I did not read/translate more than 10% of material I've got from you :) It is huge amount of scans :) I hardly am aware of what actually is there! It's enough for a year of work or more for me! I've asked my clubmates for help in translatons :)

hello rebel. iteresting subject. i like your thinking. in 1984 i had a great time in a small wheel base dragster i think less than 150inch. it belong to a gentalman named larry vanwilligin GREAT GUY !! he ran the digger in numerous early bug ins at the county. running in the low/ hi 10s deppending on the engine he had for it. 1679 seemed to work the best for the little digg. i ran my 2175 wich was producing 215 back then it went 10.24 at 132. @ 3000 ft elv. 800 lbs of pure hell what a blast. if your seeing this larry thanks again good buddy.    not a total rear engine like you discuss but with no engine spacer and mid engine and VERY VERY SHORT. lets just say the thing was easy on gear boxes 3 speed 2ND 3RD 4TH  and the clincher 4.86 RP the darn thing never broke. i gusse whighing in at poatao chip wight helped alot . its on my BUCKET LIST TO DRIVE ONE AGAIN cant wait. love the green one above bitchen little ride .     the SNOOZE YA LOOZE.   UD .

That little otto bros. car is COOL. I would love to build something like that one day.

Some questions for the old guys: Why were these cars seen more years ago? Was there a specific class that they fit into? lt seems like a chassis like this would be relatively cheap and easy to build.

This is what I actually am thinkin' about.
The drag racing governing/organising body in where I live have come up with unusual type of classes in the game.
It's generally divided to street classes and drag classes. In street classes there are some limitations in car modification to say it short. But in the drag classes, as I've read the rulebook back and forth several times, it basically seem to almost 'anything goes'. Not wanting to bore you dead in the details I've just come up with the idea, that that kind of dragster is one of the most effective (particularly cost effective) way to race. There is no doubt I probably won't let go in the street class in my super (as a club car it should be raced), but there's harder to be competitive on a budget. Comparing to what guys run, the dragster is not that bad idea...
Besides our little drag racing world is dominated by 'fast&furious' inspired creations mainly and It would be cool to show to the guys some kind of oldschool approach...

Another point for the dragster idea is (assuming it wuold be a rear engined one) fairly quick interchangablility of an engine. Which means it can be a good way to compare various engines of my clubmates. Or to use an engine from my bug for example before the dragster will have its own, dedicated one.
It's a very pleasing and thilling perspective, though...

running the engine in the rear of coarse is going to be more of a hand full if you were going to use 1st gear 2nd would be better to blead off some of the tq causing it not to porpues as bad WHEEL HOP or possibly major wheel stand depending on the power you had that day. slicks tend to hook better when chassies are longer and whight is more plentifull at least on asfalt. big bloated sand tires and sand tends to change things even on straite axle no suspention . over hear in the states the G DRASTER CLASS for the nhra was the class of choies if you wanted to run with the big boys. who cares to run in a class i my self just want to go fast and have the lightest and most power the chassie can handle and not break a darn thing and come home with a big  ;D on your face at the end of the day. thats all that matters anyway . UD .

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/Pankfronview0001.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/Pank.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/DSCN0112.jpg)

Hi Rebel,

I did 10:14 and 208 km/h with 170 hp in the late 70's with this contraption.
It worked well.
In some weeks time or maybe quicker, I should be able to share with you the pictures of the build up.

Fredrik Frallan

Lovely topic, would it come as a surprise when I say that me too I would always have loved to build something like this  ::) Who wouldn't.

Does anyone know about a slingshot type of vw powered dragster. You know where the engine is in front of the driver and the drivers sits in between/behind the rear wheels. That is what would interest me, as the weight of the engine up front would be more interesting in regards of the wheelie potential, the driver (in my case) will not outweigh that advantage.

Any one?

Very cool.  8)


There's the Lauffer's 'Nail'...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/Sacramento%20Bug-O-Rama/SacramentoBug-O-RamaL2006.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/Sacramento%20Bug-O-Rama/SacramentoBug-O-RamaL2007.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/Sacramento%20Bug-O-Rama/SacramentoBug-O-RamaL2013.jpg)

Pure evil!  :o

thanks for sharing fredric. bitchen ride. and of coarse the untouchibels ride is one of my all time favorites. UD .

That Lauffer rail is AWESOME,twinturbo.Do you have more info on that enginecombo?And times on the strip?

the last i seen it on vidio it was   ( 652 1/4@207mph)     an engine as far as i know is BB PAUTER probebly well over 1000 hp im gussing. its got to be making major oats to pull the auto and the big pumkin REAR END it smokes em gooood . UD .

i would love just once to see the nail do this.               tommy ivo showboaten.  UD . 

its still impresive as heck to watch .   UD .

this is my version of a SEXY ride. but ditch the hemi. top fule flat four. maybe some day i hope. talk about a money PIT. just keep feeding it. it will never be satisfide. UD .

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/tullinge_4_b.jpg)

Swedish but I do not know too much about it.
The owner, I think is Ove Nilsson Stockholm.

What's ithe difference in driving the rar-engined, mid engined and front engined dragster? I think it is connected with weight transfer/traction in some way, right?
I've lurked through the net searching for oldschool projects and most info I've found is about 60's style front engined v8 powered dragsters. It may be helpful, but how may it concern rather low powered vw dragster project? Is there any borderline that in exeess of let's say XXX horsepower it's better to switch to 'slingshot' design.

I'm sure a sligshot could be put together for relatively little money. A RWD four cylinder gearbox like the Ford Sierra or similar, with a live axle from an Escort or Cortina perhaps? There's no suspension to speak of, just mount the axle directly to the chassis, and connect the output of the gearbox directly to the front of the axle, eliminating the propshapt! There are enough people racing Ford-based things to pick and choose gear ratios and back axle ratios I would think!

Neil - just take a flick through the Swap Meet ads on Eurodragster, there's always loads of bits there... ;)
And, indeed, compete slingshot chassis at times...

reble. this was my last digger in 98. and from the shorty in 84 to this one. the long mid engine 180 inch hands down is the CADDILAC of speed. it all depends what your into. the shortys are cool and easy to transport. the long ones you need a special trailer. rear engine diggers are more safe in alot of ways. were front engine are ultra cool but you are waiting for 3 majors . 1 hot oily engine parts to hit you in the face. 2 rear tires to come apart and give you a series slapin in the face. 3 the worst lose your JEWELS and the rest of your lower half FOREVER!!. you make the choies.if you got low hangers then front engine all the way . UD . 

I remember you bringing this to Sac in a glider airplane trailer towed behind a Greyhound bus.  8) ;D

omg.....who started this thread...went and got UD all worked up....now theres gonna be a diigger in the shop soon >:( ;D

I'm thinkin' I need the same! ;)
There should be more dragsters in the world ...  8)

Cool midwest car I got to see run once or twice.  I think it may have just been sold?

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/165699.jpg)

I remember seeing pictures of that a while back - looked almost there, but could have done with a few bits changing to look period perfect. I always fancied a full on Fuel Altered Topolino, but with a big flat four in the front instead of a V8! ;D

Somebody should buy this and fit the correct engine(s)... ;)

(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9399/bepwc6gbwkkgrhqqhcgerdj.jpg)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230395725063&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

If I had the money... ::)

thats a cool old digger. but im sure that over in europe they have the same stringent rules like they have here. unless they have a nostalic class and keep a leash on them to some extent . thanks for sharing that ole. UD .

 :o


There's room for two on there. Bringing it to Gary's? 8)

I hear the "Snooz YA Looz" is still somewhere in OC.  In the early eighties, Larry let me put my 2.0 liter motor in the dragster and run it at OCIR . I missed the shift betweem 2nd and 3rd (forgetting that I started in 2nd) and my engiine went away in 4th. I still ran a 12.50 @ 127mph. It was so light, each gear was like an explosion.

The Nail is coooool.... (http://cal-look.no/lounge/Themes/babylon/images/post/thumbup.gif) (http://cal-look.no/lounge/Themes/babylon/images/post/thumbup.gif)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/57hotrodvw/VW/Denver/IMG_0559.jpg)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/57hotrodvw/VW/Denver/IMG_0562.jpg)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/57hotrodvw/VW/Denver/IMG_0430.jpg)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/57hotrodvw/VW/Denver/IMG_0433.jpg)

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/57hotrodvw/VW/Sacramento_BOR/IMG_5612.jpg)

hello scott. do i know you im sure i do its just been awhile. the last i seen the snooze was at my shop in 93 me and my hired hand very talented by the way were racing it at big willes terminal ieland. with my 74x92 pump gas ida,s it went 11.0s for got the mph. i like your decription of the thing EXPLOSION IN EVERY GEAR. aint that the truth. larry told me the car was originaly desinged for sand drags. then when the postman sold the car to some girl in another state for sand drags that what he told me . thanks for coming on scott . sorry if i hijaked the thread.  UD .

Hey jeff, What dragster where you and dean lowery tuneing on the fuel injection at donny guerroes shop? Must have been 10-12 years ago.

the long one danny. were you there when the throtell got stuck open here we are running around trying to shut the thing down PANIC STRUCK! luckily it was the 1805cc that like to rev. dean was great with the hillborn system he new that like the back of his hand i couldent have tunned it with out him. if only i had one of the turbos they have today the thing would have flew. it went 143mph in third gear alone but crap for ET. a to4b on a 1800cc dont like to boost on low end to well but once you get if half track it comes on like a freit trane.UD .   

the NAIL is the coolest digger since sliced bread. im sure alot of v8 guys are very very intimidated buy that BEAST for sure ;D i love it i would just once like to see there JAWS drop when one of there fellow v8 buddys gets sawed in half with half the clys. especialy on one of those 6 sec BLASTS.  UD . 

Hey

We love the old style dragsters vw and V8 my brother has the 2 and if you want to build a old style dragster use your imagination and everything depends on which engine you will use and you must decide what game you get involved ( what ET and Speed )

we do this finally for fun

regards Lenard Otto

Hi Ottobrothers!

You guys are heros to me for the combination of Mosquito and the pick up.
Me and my racing partner transported our VW dragster on the back of a VW pickup for years and we did play with the idea of rebuilding it by stretch bed and custombuilt racing box on top.
Our dragster was considrebaly longer than Mosquito and with a normal VW single cab bed the front wheel stuck out on ramps 2 meters behind the pick up bed. Looked really strange but worked.
Building of the VW pickup never materialized as we bought an old International Harvester pick up and built the racing box on that instead.

Since some few years back the renovation of the old dragster is taking slowly slowly place and the idea of a VW pick up also circulated as a nice dream.
You guys just put reality to this and I love it.
Well done. Thanks!

Hey Frallan

It is nice to meet you here on the lounge so i hope to stay in contact with you
We did not now that you build so great things over all these years and we love all your old stuff and pics
Here some more pics for you and Rebel from us

quality work! ;D

Very cool pictures and build.
Thanks for sharing.
Seeing the Pick up motivates me even more.

One day, one day I hope we will see many VW dragsters gathered in one place.
Let me propose SCC as location?
(Or should I ralize my own ideas of doing an international VW event in Malmö Sweden? Or get someoen to do it.
Meca dragway is a super track and location although only 1/8th. Very centrally located for international visitors.)

In Sweden I know of four rails:
Umeå NA mid engine dragster. T1 inverted gearbox
Mats Herrlanders old Blown Boxer now in new ownership with turbo 1600 cc 911 head engine. Mid engine and long version with PG.
Ove Nilsson Stockholm. Slingshot with turbo. I do not know more about the car.
My own Pank dragster and will run supercharged T1 with 911 head and T2 automatic.

Lets add Mosquito and then of course you Rebel.....
Anyone else? Or any other potentials?
Someone buying a turbo rail with bigblock from US? Can not run them there but on our VW events we could. Just throwing out ideas.

(http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10673.0;attach=36198;image)

Is it a Kugelfischer?

yes Ole

we going to run 1600 cc oil cooled heads and some hilborn 1 manifolds that we have from Don Pauter his sand dragster 30 year ago hey loved the dragster projekt
so Ole you have to come in on  the dragsters hahahahaha
more info and pics too come

Sounds great, I love mechanical injections   8)


Hhmm, you know I already had something going on, but it didn't work... :-\

Right now I'm doing a street car, if the result is boring me I'll might do a race car again... ::) :D

Saludos,
Ole

thankyou also for the cool pictures  8). otto bros just curios how qwic will the track let you go over there with that frame just curios . UD .

Thanks, guys!
I've seen your combo ath the EBI3 and it sooo cool :)
I did not take many pictures of it, cause I wasn't much into the subject then...

My build is rather a rough plan for the future, as the bug and the bus have priority in completition. I'm thinking about finding some kind of sponsorship to make it more possible.

Lenard, thanks for posting, those are some cool pictures.

It's going to be a cool little car when it's finished and running.  8)

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk175/Sal--E/European%20Bug-In%20III/EuropeanBug-In32009-07-04109Small.jpg)

Hi Jeff

We have no rules for a dragster so i think and hope too go for the 10 sec or we can run what you bring they are flexible in europe
We have no experience with the dragster so we do everything step by step
I think we will be careful with the driving behavior on the track we will have to look out for the wind and cross winds


grtz Lenard

As a word of caution, it could be good if you guys look at the international rules, if you haven't already.
Some good simple tips of survival can be picked up.
Just for example the steering column support built in such a way that it will not push/penetrate the steering wheel in the face.
Accelerator pedal only with push pull morse and loop on the pedal so you can retrieve it forcibly with your foot.
Main switch accessible from outside with clear on/off.

Apart from safety, in any case, you will with 99% probability need a good and long set up of wheelie bars.
We evolved our wheelie bars in to something very long and finally last year we ran them even very flexible and "pre-loaded".
The Pro specialist complained and said it was wrong setup but when they heard we ran low 10's and only just above 200km/h with 170 hp, it proved a very well working chassis.
Without the wheelie bars we just got lost in the start.
With correct pre-load the wheelie bars just were part of a kind of suspension system.
The tires collapsed few inches in launch, the wheelie bars were set to just offload the front wheels so the just barely lifted and off she went.
Releasing the clutch completely shook the entire car and all the al plates rattled. Good feeling that neither me nor Bengt remembered the first season as we were to reved up on just driving the car.
Later when we got a little bit more experienced we even knew what the rev counter was showing.......fun memories.

good point frallan. some kind of collapsible steering deffenetly needs to be in the works. would hate to see anybody EAT a butterfly for breakfast . thanks otto for the pics i need to move over there you guys are having to much fun  ;D. maybe in my retirerment if i make it that far . UD .

visit us next in 2 years for the ebi#4 you will have a chance to see the digger racing  ::)............. ;)

fabs

As Frallan says, it might be worth looking at the international rules. You may need a couple of extra tubes in the cage, but nothing too major! The collapsible sterring column is a good idea too - maybe a couple of universal joints?

EDIT - I've got a 2005 MSA rule book at home - I'll have a quick look at anything in there if you want? I know it's out of date (that was the last year I raced!) but it might be useful! :D

..you guys know. just would like to see you live another day is all . UD

Hi Ottobros,

I really hope I did not offend you and my input was in no way crtitising the current build as I do love it!
I was simply pointing at the small quick wins that can be done without any major effort but make a big difference.

In the steering column, all you need is a welded flange in front of a support block to avoid the column to travel in wrong direction, if the unthinkable happens.
Roll cage I personally should be Ok and not a problem even if rules in Sweden require two more supports.
We had to add two to the original design when my friend Mats Herrlander borrowed the car in 1991 to race in Germany.
Not so beautifully added and it ruined some of the original pearl paint. Still Ok modification and it was simply needed.
I hope to restore the fram with same paint scheme now.

Not a good detailed picture of the car but still you can see the two extra roll loops we added...and my daughter 8 years ago.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/1-1.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/2-1.jpg)

Was that sheep a safety feature?  :)

We use collapsible sterring columne the tube is collapsible ( drill some holes in ) and a fragile rubber in front

Rebel,
Here is a trip down Memory Lane.
A lot of old pictures and from four of my dragsters we built but maybe it could inspire you a little bit more to go ahead?

First the Pank built in 1977.
On this car we really built a lot ourselves.
Spindles, front wheels with own hubs and Italian magnesium rims.
The steering rack modified to be lighter than a Stilletto model just for the sake of it.
Gas welded CroMoly.....that taught us a lesson or two before we mastered temperatures and stressrelieving on this very sensitive material. Even room temperature is critical.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank-1.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank55.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank44.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank11.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank2-1.jpg)

And a memory lane picture from our first testrun...worn down home made camshafts, and the flame hardening just did not work.
Look how half ready the car was. Rubber just wrapped around the flywheel housing and a lot of quick fixes.
The date is April 1978
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank22.jpg)

Here comes some pictures from 1982.
The monocoque experiment. I really regret not building further on thsi concept. It could have been a pretty nice car but it quickly changed shape due to circumstances I am still too shy to share.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono23.jpg)
Here the loop around the gas pedal can be seen.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono22.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono2.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono12.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono3.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono11.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/mono1.jpg)

Now a mix from two other cars.
Year are 1982-1983
Note the wheelie bar. I think we were testing this at the same time as similar concept was popping up in USA.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/14days.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/14days1.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/14days2.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/Frontaarm.jpg)

cool pictures frallan , does some of them still exist today ???

Only the Pank one and that is the same as the one were my daughter is in posting above. It is under renovation.
Ahh well maybe one more is around. The one with a-arm front end.
I gave it away to my best friend who put a small block SC Chevy in. Then it was sold to Germany and driven for some season there. Might still be around.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/scan0013.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/HondaengineSC0001.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/TheHondaSCDougNash.jpg)

Those are some amazing shots, Frallan! A dragster with blown SU carbed honda engine with belt driven vertex magneto?! Too cool! Is it a motorcycle engine?

thanks frallan for the  8)shots looks more like one of the original small cvicc engines.  UD .

Frallan...Can you shed some light on your engine configuration?
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/pank2-1.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/DSCN0112.jpg)
BTW love this picture!!!
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/scan0013.jpg)

It is a Honda Civic 1238 cc engine. I carried it under one of my arms...fantastic engine. Light, strong and high potential at the time. Today it is motorcycle engines that counts in that size.
Magnacharger MC80. Fantadstic good small roots blower.
SU 2" with no float but rather a overflow levels system running methanol. Very intersting way to tune it by mostly having different needles done with different profiles and then finally by having a movable seat. Super simple in many ways.
The engine ran counterclockwise.

In the first monocoque dragster we simply ran the gerabox upside down......not a good idea to run a gearbox in wrong direction if the geras are not stright. It worked but not so easy to change geras as I needed a strong hand.

In the latest version in the long rail we ran a Dough Nash 5 speed and a old bus reduction gear in between to reduce rpm and also change rotation. That worked really good!

Do you mean the VW with 911 heads?
If yes I can guide you to a couple of threads at Shoptalkforums that covers my and many other similar engines in detail.

If it is the Honda, it is simply a slightly modified Civic engine, ported heads, performance cam, lightened, balanced, special piston with gasports by myself.
The rest of the installation is pretty straightforward.
MC80 roots blower running 25-30 psi on methanol.
Really nice to go through the 5 gears on the Dough Nash at 8-9000 rpm.

There was also a thread on it on here by Ole a while back: Swedish Flat Four OHC Dragster (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,61.0.html)

There was also a thread on it on here by Ole a while back: Swedish Flat Four OHC Dragster (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,61.0.html)

[/quote]

Thanks Mat,

I had not seen that thread and the picture is new to me also.
Anyway, here is a much more detailed thread on 911 conversion.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59308

You're not kidding on the detail. Interesting link though I've only read through the first two pages so far.  8)

Do you mean the VW with 911 heads?
If yes I can guide you to a couple of threads at Shoptalkforums that covers my and many other similar engines in detail.
[/quote]

Yes, that is a very cool setup, I looked at the shoptalk post for a while, interesting stuff. May have to build one someday  :)

I found this on the intrenet the 2 car is build by Dean Lowery

Thought I recognised the blower...I have a NOS one in my parts stash! ;D

HAPPY HOLIDAYS FROM THE OTTO BROTHERS

Awesome pictures and documentation of a very early stage in Scandinavian VW-racing Frallan!
Here's a couple of pics of the Pank engine. Cool or what? You can spend quite some time just looking at that thing.
Really looking forward to seeing the Pank restored and race ready!