The Cal-look Lounge

Hi guys,
     Well, I busted out my Gene Berg traction bar and read the instructions. Seems pretty darn easy. However, I know there has to be some tips and advice out there to make a super cool install!
     I do have a few questions though:
1. The traction bad sits on that little square just below the oil pump? Not the two little nubs in between it and the sump? Wow! Kinda small area.
2. Did both of your mounting bolt holes come out through the bottom of the engine bay? Looks like one is marginal and could end up in the engine bay?? I don't want that!
     Thanks! ;)

I bought a Bugpack traction bar at a swap meet and used the hardware for my Berg traction bar so I didn't have to drill any holes.

Here's some pictures.

(http://glenn-ring.com/brakes/IMG_3015.jpg)

(http://glenn-ring.com/brakes/IMG_3018.jpg)

(http://glenn-ring.com/brakes/IMG_3020.jpg)

I didn't lilke the idea of drilling up the body for those ugly brackets, so I took the advice of someone here on the Lounge and used the factory hole in the body right by the valve cover and shortened the rods to match. Plug and play. Easy!

Thanks Glenn! Those are perfect pics! Looks pretty straight forward! I am hoping for less wheel hopping/burn outs and more straight forward harder acceleration  ;)

Thank you Zach, you have a picture of yours? Not sure where you are referring too. I will venture out to the garage and have a look..............

Zach,
My care is a 74 and has the energy absorbing bumper mounts so I can't use the bumper bracket bolts.

65bug,
I have zero wheel hop with the Berg bar and mid mount.

See that small hole in the body directly under the bracket? Bin the bracket, and put the bent part of the threaded rod directly in that hole. Then all you have to do is figure out how much you need to shorten the rod, and install.

That`s right Zach, no nee to drill extra holes in you car.

Same method here. I had to tap another .75" or so of threads on mine in addition to shortening the rod.

Some pictures here:

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,11914.0.html

Interesting link, must be easy to do something with the bumper brackets.

I cut just the bend off, and put another bend in the rod. Worked perfect. The threads are rolled, so I felt this was the best way.

Do you guys think the hole/bumper brackets will be strong enough when you have a removable rear valence? I also use a A1 lowdown header which should complicate thing further :p.

Thanks everyone! I have a project this morning! ;)

If you run a brace between both rear bumper hangers it will be just fine.
I also have a lowdown & my berg traction bar clears it no problem.

AssHull's '67 has a removable rear apron and I did the traction bar this way, no problems.

I thought about approaching it that way, but wasn't sure I could get a "nice" bend in it again.

We took it to a steel place with a heavy duty brake. Only cost a couple bucks.

Thanks Zach and 67 heaven!

The Berg bracket is set up to use the "strength" of the thicker bumper sheet metal, for extra bracket support.  That small bottom hole "might" be fine, but it wouldn't be as strong, and could be an issue, if you are launching fiercely...

It's two thick where that hole is. The Berg bracket only goes to a single thickness of metal (granted it's distributing it over a larger area, but still).

I can't imagine that hole ripping out in even the most brutal of street cars.

What I meant was the Berg bracket "sits on top of the bumper ledge", so that the pressure from the launch is taken by the thick ledge that juts out horizontally.

I've seen plenty of Beetles with rust in the area where that factory hole is already drilled...so I'm just saying that drivers should use caution when relying on it.  If your Beetle is totally sound in the area of the factory hole, then you might be okay...

Any Tips: Yeah DON'T use it!!!!! Its a load of crap! For a start how on earth can you call a piece of standard 1" steel box section with 2 holes drilled in it a "Traction Bar"  ::) its the worst solution to a problem I have ever seen! you are completely relying on the BODY sheet metal to absorb all the forces - Its a RUBBISH piece of engineering!

Ok, I agree calling it a "traction bar" might be a stretch (in the V8 sense of the word), but it is a simple solution to the hop problem and it does work!

ok it might "work" for a while - Until the sheet metal starts tearing!  ;)

I have just never liked the idea of these dude - you know me I like to speak my mind hehehehehe :D

Using that small hole used to be REAL common. If you sat near the track at OCIR at the old Bug Ins, you risked getting clocked in the head from traction bars flying off the cars. It happened a lot with that set up.

Getting clocked in the head with a traction bar is old school cal-look!

Obviously you don't know what you are talking about.  I have used mine for 17 years now and no problem.  You have to look at what it is doing.  If it was pulling sideways then there might be a problem, but it is pulling down and the strength is there to support it.  I followed the Berg instructions which are very good and it works.  Talk to an engineer and perhaps you will understand it is the way the stress is applied that allows it to work over and over.

...so there...

Haha yeah!!

Bend it a bit past 90°, it's not going anywhere ;)

Hey guys,
       Well, I scratched my head and tried all sorts of configurations for my mounting tabs. EVEN PUTTING THE TABS WHERE THE DIRECTIONS STATE TO, MY HANGERS ARE WAY TO LONG. They need to be cut down.
      I am thinking I am going to use the single hole already in my body, then cut the hangers down and extend the threads wayyy up the rod.
      Next, the pad that sits under the motor.......................I dont know. It's such a small area. If you go with the longest part of the flat area, then the whole bar is off center. If you use the very end of the flat spot, it's really small.
      I am still looking at different ways to mount. Seems to be the Bugpack Kafer bar set up is MUCH nicer and certainly more solid of a unit...
      I am a engineer by trade, so I will figure out something I like. IF NOT, I will sell it and buy the Kafer bar instead............... :-\

Rubbish! I am an engineer!

There's always more then one way to skin a cat. I like Gene Berg products and I have spent many a dollar there. However, other brands such as Bugpack and Pauter are excellent as well. That Berg traction bar set up cost them all of about 15.00 to produce and it will work. No one has to tell me otherwise. There are however better thought out units in my opinion. The Bugpack Kafer bar is a much more solid unit............

Just a thought but you don't see the V8 guys bolting their "Motor plates" to the inner fenders do you  ;)

no but they don't have cantilever support for their engines.

Don't wanna sound rude Lee but Gene Berg used this for decades, and I think i'll take his advice.

But i will admit i use the bracket the mounts on the bumper hanger.

I installed one on my dads car a few years ago, I was not impressed with the quality.

You can slag it all you want, but the bottom line is, the design works for street cars.

You can say whatever you like, simplicity often Rules (K.I.S.S. ... !), the Berg design does simply work.
I tried a 'Kafer' setup and it took me ~8 hours to re-straighten my frame horns after attempting a normal launch @ 6500 rpm ... worst decision I've made in quite some time! ... and that was with DOTs, not slicks ... ruined it!
The 3 bar 'Kafer' design is simply nowhere near as strong because it places ALL of the stress of the launch on the shock mounts which are located roughly 14" (radially) from the center of the torsion housing. That gives the frame horns 14" of leverage on the torsion housing which has to take on most of the stress ... believe me, it will twist and this is NOT the only way you want to support your engine/transaxle assembly!
The 'other' design, though SIMPLE, supports the assembly linearly by the body which is QUITE STRONG since the body sheet metal is in the same plain as the stress put on it. Ever try to tear or even bend a piece of sheet metal by pulling two corners away from each other?
Now, if you simply CANNOT deal with this approach, another useful design supports the framehorns at the rear transaxle mount by attaching rods to the mount and the rear portion of the package tray/luggae area behind the rear seat. I would imagine the reason you don't see kits sold for this design is the complexity involved in implementing as welding plates to the package tray will be necessary to distribute the load as well as likely engine and rear transaxle mount removal to implement the 'system'.
Kinda makes the Berg design a little more attractive, don't you think?
TxT

I agree with Tom. kafer units are not what they are cracked up to be.  I ran a berg traction bar and a solid front mount and never had any problems. It creates a very well supported system. Never any wheel hop and never any broken transmission cases which if these things happen is a good sign that something is not supported correctly. With the kafer units you are pivoting all the weight and power of the motor from the rear torsion housing and nothing holding any support at the motor. Motor and trans is moving still together off the rear torsion housing.  If you have a roll cage that supports from in front of the torsion housing then you have the support ties into the complete car.  The Kafer system looks beefy and cool and very racier but are worthless.   Dave Rhoads

Ya know after reading what you guys posted (Dave & Tom)...it makes alot of sense to me !....I think I'm going to steer clear of the Kafer bar myself and mount my berg traction bar back on the car !...I already have a Berg mid-mount and urethane motor mounts ..the bar would just tighten the rear..! as far as stress...!..If your tearing sheet metal up then something has to be wrong up front !..I often wondered about the kafer bar set and the "Cantilever effect...?...I mean nose,mid ,motor mount and Berg bar..How can you go wrong !...seems like it should be enough ..?...for street anyway

Be carefull of the urethane motor mounts. They will crack and fall apart from stress and vibration. That's why I always use the steel or aluminum front mount.  With the steel you need to weld the bolts to the mount otherwise they will come lose. Dave Rhoads

how about the grey HD (Bus) rubber mounts for front and rear?

At Berg you can buy the whole kit : http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=583195

(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/pix/1988253.jpg)

I'm using them... no problems so far.

I have grey fronts

i've got them lying around for when the other 'box is done. grey mounts, mid mount, and traction bar is what i was planning on using.

I also have the greys just waitin for the "New" tranny....!

One last comment on the 'Kafer' bars ... I assume they trickled down/out from the KaferCup cars ... ?
They do a good job of tying in and strengthening the shock towers for better shock performance, especially noticable when you're running stiff settings like they would on a roadcourse, or on a dragcar with slicks.
But for a traction/wheel-hop device ... NO.
That's all I have to say about That ... LOL
TxT

Maybe it's overkill, but I run HD grey cradle and nose mounts, genuine Mohr mid mounts, Bugpack HD cradle mount with a strap, Fast Fab chromoly kafer bar and a Berg traction bar.

Wow, I was expecting that to cost more than $250... not too bad... I wonder if I can find somebody locally to weld up the mounts for the intermediate mount... around here nobody gives a sh*t about VWs.  One of those times I wish I could weld. Lol.

We're on the same page except for the Berg 5speed front mount and their mid also.
It's just good insurance when your dang near quadrupling the factory horsepower. ;)

Get a MIG welder. It's easier than you're thinking. Just takes practice.

Another choice for a mid mount and they dont hang below frame horns.

Peeerty ...

The choice of ALL ! jack drinkers!!

Thanks guys for all the input! You are correct about the Kafer bar Tom. I got to see one first hand today. I am sticking with the Berg traction bar for now. However, There are a few things that just do not seem to fit properly.
   One is the bolt in tabs that the hangers slip into. I AM SURE EACH CAR IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, SO BERG HAS DONE A GOOD JOB AT GETTING THEM CLOSE.
    My car is a 65, and the tabs did not really SIT on the bumper cradles at all. So, I decided to go a different approach. I still wanted to use the mounts for more strength. I had to remove my passenger side fender. First time for me that I have taken a fender off my car.
    I WAS SHOCKED..........THE FENDER BOLTS CAME OUT SO EASY!!!! Whoever worked on them last..........THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! I am assuming they put either grease or anti-seize on them.
    So, passenger side is done. I pulled out my trusty plumb bob to get directly under the very back portion where the rear tab is. It's turning out nicely. And the hangers will not be at too much of rake or angle. ROCK solid.
    I tried using the existing factory holes for the hangers. I did not like the angle it set the hangers at. They where in my opinion angled to far back.

I would cut a little off the rod that goes through bracket and weld a small washer on end so it dont pop out! Just a Idea.

Thanks! It's actually not hooked up there. I will get some pics once it's tightened down. The hanger sits in there just as good as if the tabs where mounted vertically. With the tabs, I could never get them to lay on the bumper ledge at all trying to mount them vertically. My holes I drilled went through the doubled up sheet metal too. and stayed below the engine bay lip. It was tight, but worked out nicely ;)

CB rhino mounts, Berg traction bar brackets mounted on bumper support ledge and Mohr Performance mid-mount:

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2iroo0k.jpg)

(http://i52.tinypic.com/5vd6o2.jpg)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2nuoh38.jpg)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2hf6lgi.jpg)

Yeah, my buddy whose shop I'm working out of has a welder... I need to do some practicing... a skill I want to have for sure.

Hi guys,
     Traction bar mounts and hangers are completed to my liking now. It sits on the very outside square pad now directly below the bolt home on the furthest point on the motor. As you can see, I flipped the brackets around. No chance of them going anywhere. You have to unbolt from the bottom and swing the hanger up to get it to come out of the hole. They are straight up and down as well. Not laying over to one side
     I had to try different ways and just go through the motions to understand what and how I wanted it. It will work for me.
          I will now fabricate a piece for the bottom to keep that block from chewing up the mount quickly................ ;)

I like your thinking.

The only possible problem with this is that you have now created a lever that could rip the bolts out.

If you kept the original design the rod acted vertically through the bolts thus no distance from direction of force, hence no moment and no lever.

Yep -- those brackets need to installed vertically

Agreed, the bracket could also twist...

Guys,
     You mean to tell me people have been mounting their traction bar off on hole(the stock factory one) with no brackets at all. And it's held for years!!!! I'll be the first to admit it if they ever move. For now, I will be known as THE GUY WITH THE HORIZONTAL TRACTION BAR MOUNTS...................... :D ;)

It won't move or do anything but work.  I had mine that way except underneath the bumper bracing using the stock hole that's there.  And I had only one bolt holding mine on with the bracket wedged against the bumper bracing.  And you also have it into the double thickness of the sheet metal.  Looks good.  You shouldn't have any problems.   Dave Rholads

Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................

If worried, Make a doubler plate for back side. Plus your going through two layer's of sheetmetal rather than the single one if mounted  vertical.

I never said it would be a problem, just that it might.  It is a leaver as the direction of force is not acting through the centre of the mounting position, so the when the engine pushes down on launch the threaded bolt will pull down on the bracket just like a door handle.  The fact it is supported by the bracket doesn't change this fact, but the bracket probably helps by having a higher shear force than the downward force and hence will stay there.

How are the bolts on the other side ...?...any pics...?

3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.

I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.

A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

-BB-

beetlebug,
         hmmmmmm, that custom job is mounted very similar to mine. Another lever?. I am putting out about 200 HP. I honestly do not think it will be a problem. When I lined my bracket up vertically, it did not sit flat. Second, it did not lay on the bumper ledge at all. Not even close. Third, it would have only been bolted through a single piece of sheet metal. Fourth, I did not want to have to drill through my engine compartment. That would have bothered me. So this was MY solution. Dave Rhoads verified it, as it was his solution too.
       
       
Kaferdog,
      Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.

Danny,
       No worries here. Thanks
       

Not sure why you feel like you have to answer me that way as I`m sure you`re solution will work. I have twice the power you have and it works for me with my single, original hole kinda thing  :)

I do like the fact that the hardware isn't showing in the engine compartment :)

Kalle, are you trying to plug the SCC videos in this topic?

;)

Dam..was it so obvious  :)

The thought and workmanship in both of those brackets is fantastic


I know for a lot of you guys we are not talking about huge HP/Torque engines, but let me try to explain explain why Horizontal mounting is not as good as vertical mounting. The most important force involved here is the shearing at where the bolts are located, this will cause, in severe situations, damage to either the bolts or the sheet metal supporting/anchoring the bolts.

When the bracket is mounted up & down/vertically you have the downward force being placed equally on both bolts. with both bolts sharing the load.

But when the bracket is mounted horizontally you end up with a twisting force being placed onto the bracket and the bolt in the middle of the bracket then absorbing MOST of the downward energy and the other bolt acting more as a fulcrum than an anchor. -- If you doubt me, loosen up the bolts on the bracket until the bracket is just barely attached then pull down on the bar. you will even probably see the bar at end where it is bolted get twisted upward. This is because of some of the energy is transmitted to that bolt while the bolt in the middle is being the fulcrum. In any case, the forces being exerted on the middle bolt are multiplied greatly in the horizontal mounting.

But this argument is mute it your not generating enough energy onto that bracket to cause any damage., or you've built a bracket that is designed at overkill.

I guess what I was trying to say was ......Where do they "show" on the ""Other side".....Any pics ?

I have mocked up a similar traktion bar for my 67. I dont have room for a CSP bar, and dont know if it will do the job.
I use 40x20mm bar with brackets in the bumper bracket. Brackets in picture only for mock-up

reg
c

beetlebug,
       That reply about the lever was not directed at you. ;) And I know there's not enough force to even phase it. That's why I felt it was a viable alternative and mounted it that way. IT also rests flatter against the panel that way vs. vertically. I would be more concerned with the body taking a hit then anything. And It's double walled there where I drilled.
       I understand what you guys are saying about the pivot effect. However, the right side of the bolt closest to the tab is laying up against the bumper support. And the left side of the right bolt.............................well HAS ANOTHER BOLT IN IT. So it's held down on both ends. I dont think it's ever going anywhere. So really there is no pivot effect. It's been eliminated.
       There is more stress concentrated in one area now for sure. But I think it's still overkill and should work fine.
      Kaferdog, I will get a pic for you as soon as I can. I worked about 14 hours today. I can tell you it's a small area in there where they fit. Directly below the shelf in the engine bay. I will have to crawl up under the car to get you a pic.
       Glad to see beetle bugs pics of that NICE CUSTOM set up is mounted similar to mine.................... ;D
     

This isn't the case.  Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.
The bracket that's being talked about with the 2 bolts stays put due to the large amount of friction between the bracket and the body of the car.  This friction is created due to the tension in the bolts.  In order for those bolts to be in shear, the bracket would have to slip due to the applied load until the bracket contacts the bolts.  Anytime you have a bracket that slips, you either don't have the bolts tight enough, or they're too small.

There is a nugget of gold in any thread.

About the hanging of a engine/gearbox unit.
Ever tried to break something like a twig or a board of wood in two? If you use only your hands you will have a tough time doing it, introduce your knee into the task and you do it without problems.
Meaning more supports are not necessarily good if they are placed wrong.

Rumor: You can tell how much power a car fitted with a Berg traction has by measuring the gap of the engine lid?

will the traction bar work on a ghia? or will it distort the body? any views on this?

early-air,
       Call Gene Berg. I can bet they have a traction bar for your Ghia! They are heavy duty and mine is making a huge difference! You could of course make your own. Does not seem to be too big a deal.       BRUCE TWEDDLE GETS MY VOTE FOR NEW CAL LOOK LOUNGE MODERATOR ;) Thank you Bruce!

Geez Cassa -- I couldn't afford your Braided stainless bill --Holy Moly that's a ton of lines

Geez Cassa -- I couldn't afford your Braided stainless bill --Holy Moly that's a ton of lines
[/quote]

 ;D  A 3 stage drysump pump and mechanical Aeromotive fuelpump will do that to you...  ;D

And there is still a couple of lines missing..

Hey guys,
  Happy 4TH to all you guys. I got to work on my car some today and snapped some pics of the traction bar bracket bolts. Here's some pics lying on my back shooting upwards.

traction bar works awesome!!!!!! What a difference it has made. So far so good...............................

Kicking an old topic. Does anyone know what size thread Berg uses on the rods? Just in case I need to tap some extra thread. Thanks!

3/8-16 UNC