The Cal-look Lounge

Here's my thoughts, as it will be a street/bracket racing combo, and I'm pretty well set on 90.5's as I have the cylinders and the case is already bored for them.

2110 or 2165cc
(either 82 or 84mm stroke)
Engle 120 or 130 cam
8.5 or 9:1 compression
straight cut gears
40x35.5mm heads (probably 044's, but haven't decided yet, will be shopping at Sac!)
full full oiling and filter, of course
doghouse cooler
dual 44IDF Webers or 45 DRLA Dells, if I can find them
Berg or Scat 1.5 Qt sump
CB unitech stroker rods or else rebuilt stock German rods with ARP or other quality bolts (any advice?)
power pulley (not a daily driver)
welded doghouse fan
chromeoly pushrods
stock 1.1 German VW rockers
dual valve springs
1-5/8" exhaust

Any thoughts or opinions on this set up?  I welcome any and all suggestions!  Have at it!

Should make a nice, solid driver. I would probably open the pipe a little to 1-3/4" in the interest of cooling. The 120 will be really mild in that big of a motor. The 130 will run better with that big of cc and compression like you're talking. I did an 84 x 94 for a guy about 10 yr ago, with 40 x 37 VW heads, 8.4:1 and a 130-ish cam and it was a total torque monster. TW on here can attest. I thought it was a great street motor, was in a super heavy 73 'Vert with 3.88 R&P... needed the grunt. Guy was scared to drive it hard though  :-\

Are there better cam grinds out there other than the ones I suggested?  Just curious... I'm kind of trying to use some of the existing parts in my current stash.
Any idea as to what kind of power increase I can expect over my current combo (1776, semi hemi stock valve heads, 1.25 rockers, Engle 100, 7.8:1, 1-3/8" exhaust with single QP, dual Kadrons).  Driving like a wuss off the line, my best ET with no fan belt has been an 11.19 in the 1/8 mile at 61 miles per hour.  Usually I'm running 11.30s and up  with the belt on  and equally soft launches, as I drive it to and from the track.

82 x 90.5 is 2110, 84 x 90.5 is 2161. 78 x 94 is 2165.

I would not use stock rods on anything over 78mm. 82mm use 5.4 rods or 84 use 5.5 length. I would use the Engle 120 depending on how wild or mild the heads will be. The rest of the combo sounds solid.

Do you have 90.5 B pistons yet? If not you might as well go with 94s and have the barrels turned down to 90.5 size.

Turn down the bases of some 94's to get them in that 90.5 case. Bigger bores let your heads breathe! If you don't have a crank yet, you can't beat a DPR 78.4 for the price. I recommend that size just because if you go any bigger with welding up a stock crank there isn't much left of the original forging, just my opinion. And it will work great with stock clearanced rods, not too much machining/clearancing needed. Steve Tims stage 2 heads can't be beat for the price, either- my friends relatively modest 1915 did 13.8's through 3 gears, and I think it's because of the heads! Steve will probably recommend 42x37.5. 130 cam, stock rockers, sure. It's a cheap combo that should make great power, your lifter bores wont be thrilled though. ;) 9-9.5:1. I'd search out a pair of Dell's, plugged idles in Webers suck! Bigger deep sump. I'd say you are right on the border of 1 5/8" vs. 1 3/4"

Depends on the RPM range you want. The 120 is a good cam for 1800cc and under "hot" motors, good cam for mild drivers in 1900+. In your long stroke application, it will make torque, but will run out of steam up top. 6000rpm will probably be peak. If you want it to run from idle to 6000 cleanly, the 120 (or equivalent Web 110) will work. Personally, under 260' @ .050" in a stroker is boring. Over 270' and you have a wilder motor that wants revs.
The 125 Engle is a much better choice, in my opinion. It will run as low down as the 120 with the long crank, but give you a wilder ride up top. It is amazing how much of a dual personality cam the 125 is in a stroker. Sarge's car is a good example. Docile, quiet and very easy to drive sedately, yet, get on a freeway onramp and poke the gas and you're gone. My first stroker ran the 125, btw. It was a real fun driver, and was easy on parts.
Simple dual spring motor....
the 40mm intakes are going to work fine. It isn't so much valve diameter as it is how the air gets to the valve. If you open the valve up more (lift), you're giving the air a bigger window to get through too. I'd go 37.5 on exhaust, keep exh ports small, and run the 1-3/4 header.
In short, I am saying get ahold of Jeff Denham to do your heads.
So my suggestion, from experience, is 78mm crank (easier to put together, VW clearanced rods bolt on) x whatever bore you have, Engle 125 with 1.25 rockers, JEff Denham 40 x 37.5, Vw dual springs shimmed to your lift, 44mm+ twin 2bbl carbs, 9.0:1, full flow it, cool it, filter it... etc etc etc. To get 6500 revs out of it, depending on cc, you'll need at least a 38mm vent. Keep that in mind when looking for carbs. That is for 90.5 x 78
so if you go bigger, you'll need to shop for bigger vents.
I think a power band of 2000-6500 is ideal for a street motor. Parts last, and you'll be teasing the guys in V8's easy.
If you want something that's going to kill most everything else on 4 wheels, go for race gas motor. Run CR up over 12:1, FK89, 48IDAs and keep your floor jack handy.
Or if you want that ragged edge motor, the stroker with near 10:1 and the bite of the 86C Web with Denham's "street 44 x 37" heads (see louisb) is hard to beat.
Have fun,

Great info, thanks, Jim and all!  Will definitely print all of this off and keep it handy...

Jim sure makes it all sound fun.    8)

On second thought, I do like the sound of a Engle 125 over the 130, for the combo I listed above.

it IS fun.  8)
Nothing quite like setting carbs after the cam's broken in, getting to hear the fresh motor chomping at the bit, just waiting for you to kick the throttles open and slingshot the car down the block. Your first spirited trip in the new stroker is like no other. You won't be ready for it... trust me. You'll come back wearing a perma grin. then you get to stand there with decklid open and gaze at the new, sparkling motor. Get to smell the fresh header paint cool, get to crawl around under car looking for any leaks, get to let it cool than run through valves (just to make sure all is cool in there)... get to drain new oil out and wonder how much crap is in it. Then you can clean all your tools and put them away all orderly and such, close garage up and go crack a cold beer. Then 15 min later you'll be back out in garage, door opened, staring at it again. Then you'll fire it up again and free rev it. Next you'll be back to ripping around the block. By now it's 1am.

Pure passion!  :)

Carotica  ;D

Man, now I'm REALLY excited to go to Sacramento at the end of the month...;D  For me, part of the fun is the planning stages.  It may take me two years or better to build, given my limited financial resources and time, but it'll be worth it.  Hee Hee!

Ryan, I have a set of lightly used Mahle 94 B barrels and pistons. The barrels need honing and I have a new set of Mahle rings and spirol loc clips.The pistons have been balanced too. I got these from Ratto about 10 years ago and they have just sat. I can bring them to Sac or any SOVW meeting you come to. Lay-A-Way or bartering is available.

I may have a friend that needs $ that has some cranks and stuff laying around. Let me see if I can get ahold of him and see what he's got. I think he had couple of 84mm Chevy journal cranks.

Key thing with good street motor, aim for a wide usable powerband. I'm not just talking bottom end either. You'd be surprised how going to long stroke makes them so much more driveable, even with "so-called" extreme cam timing. You may think initially to err on the 110-120 side when doing a "street" motor, but what some don't realize is that yes you will have "bottom end" but you don't have a "wide" powerband, as the top end is not there. With a long stroke motor, (from experience), even the FK87 had acceptable manners down low. Sure, it really came alive up @ 5K+, but it was by all means "driveable" at all rpms. There is a limit though.
Just keep in mind that if you have bottom end, but you lose 2000rpm on top, you don't have as wide a powerband as a motor that pulls hard off idle and gets that extra 2K rpm.
260'-268' @ .050", provided you have the 'right' combo of stroke, heads, intake...bla bla bla... will do that.

I agree with the FK 87 being a good all round cam in a well built motor. Built a couple of motors with 2276 cc, 44x37 and Ida's, 10:1 CR and have been able to cruise as low down as 2,000 rpm in top and spank the motor to 7 grand no probs. 12.4 second quarter mile times on radials in a street weight car, too!

What's the advantage to Chevy journal'ed cranks over VW journals?  There's so much I need to learn and get schooled on, it's mind boggling!  I've never anything other than stock stroke engines, and my Engle 100'd 1776 with Kadrons is the biggest engine I've had so far.  ;D

more room for crank and rods to swing.

I often wonder what it must have been like for you "pioneers" the first time you guys got your big Weber motors in your cars and wooded the gas.
I bet you guys couldn't wait to get to your buddy's house to "show off"....hahahahaha  ;D

Close ratio gears are fun, but get old FAST if you don't have a 5th gear. I lived with mine for about a year or so before I went back to stock ratios. I remember when I drove Gary Berg's car though for the first time, with the 5sp.... now that was nice. Not much rpm drop... it just went. Now if it only had some compression....

I often wonder what it must have been like for you "pioneers" the first time you guys got your big Weber motors in your cars and wooded the gas.

Well son, way back in '49 (that would be 1948 in the California Gold Rush Days) us "Pioneers" just told our team (of horses, usually 6 which was referred to as a "stroker") to STAND ON IT    ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D.... That's one for the book! God I love this place! Keep it up John and Jim (and all the rest!)

cheers,

BUT it also makes for a weaker crank. Less cross section shared between the main and rod journals. Might not be an issue with your motor, but it's just something to think about.

would you use a VW journal 84mm crank Zach?

No, I wouldn't use an 84mm VW journal crank. The case would have to be clearanced far too much for my comfort. I was just giving him both sides of the story so he can find a happy medium ;)

Now I'm all confoosed.  ;D Ah well, I have plenty of time to research options.

Hi, I called my guy that I thought had some cranks... they're all gone, but he turned me onto another guy. If he has something, I'll pm you his #.

My advice... keep things simple and moderate. Don't scan catalogs for the "extremes"....meaning specs (or prices).
Go in between, and keep it simple dude.
You'll be happy.

turns out my next lead does have some stuff... I'll pm you his info. Have fun,
Jim

Cool, sounds good... and simple is my mantra philosophy!

Great post Jim. I really like this camshaft talk!  :)
I've got one question: you suggested to go for race gas when using a huge cam like a FK89, in order to run a high compression ratio. I was taking a look at the DKP member cars specs, and while many cars have compression around 12 or even 13:1, there are a few cars that rely on FK-89 cams but run a relatively "modest" compression like a 9.5:1.
Now, since DKP cars have always represented the pinnacle of the WV high performance street scene to me, I'd really like to know how a FK-89 street motor would perform in everyday driving with a pump gas compression.
I think Dave Mason's car is the perfect example.
 

Stole this from another thread...

I've gotta ask, why are you "stuck on" these displacements? Not that they are bad motors, just curious to your reasoning.

Limited funds and I already have 90.5 barrels... I know I'll have to hunt down a set of 'B' pistons, but it's simply a matter of me going with as much as I already have as possible, which is also why I'm looking at sticking with a cam that can run 1.1 rockers.  I'm also trying to minimize machining costs due to a lack of locally available services.  I'll have to have any work done by mail order as it is, so I'm trying to limit the amount of mailing heavy packages as possible.

hi, did my buddy have anything you could use? He must have some 90 b's laying around... probably already balanced.

Fair enough! Then I still reccommend the 78.4 from DPR, swinging a set of stock journal/length clearanced rods. 2017cc with a 125 cam, Tims stage 2 heads, 9:1, 1 5/8" header and some 45 Dells will get you around just fine ;)

Hi Jim, chatted with Ray the other day... haven't heard back from him yet, so I may give him a call on my lunch hour!  I'll inquire with him on that when I do reach him.

Zach, I'm leaning along the 78mm route, though the temptation to go to 82 also lies strong.  I already have a good set of stock rods I could get reworked and better bolts installed into.

An 82 with stock rods requires some healthy case clearancing, and like I said earlier I personally don't trust anything over 78 for a welded stroker crank. There just isn't much left of the original forging. Not that it can't be done (it has many times over I'm sure), it's just my personal preference.

Good luck!

ryan, seen it happen.... 82mm VW journal, especially with VW rods...  rod big ends smack the cam. So if you decide to go that way, look into clearanced cam and maybe even smaller base circle, Preston's motor was 82mm VW journal, with Scat 82, and Eagle rods, Web 86C. I mocked the thing up just for first checks... guess what... TINK... had to send cam back for clearanced and smaller base circle.
A 78mm motor is so easy to build. Even Bates could do it.

 ;D

I think I'll go the 78mm route, then.  Sounds like that's the route for me at this point!  I talked to Ray briefly today, and we'll chat later this weekend, I think... looking forward to seeing what he comes up with...;D

Hey now. At least put up a smiley >:( 78 was just as easy as a 69. Peas and steak.

Hey Jim, does Ray usually come to Sacramento for the Bug o Rama?  Depending on what he has, I'm interested in maybe making a purchase there so I can avoid shipping costs.  Hoping to hear something this week so we can set it up. ;D

He usually does. I'll put a call into him and let him know to bring stuff for you (if you want).

Cool, I didn't want to keep calling him and bugging him, so I figured I'd wait until I hear from him and see what we can work out.

Tried to call again today, and left a message... hoping to chat with him so's if we make a deal we can do it at Sacto rather than have to ship parts. 

Well, call me impatient, but after two unreturned phone messages, I gave up... had a great time at Sac and wound up buying my 78.4 mm crank from Jose at DPR.  Very, very nice guy and I look forward to putting this beast together!

Odd I never heard back from Ray, but I talked with someone else who said he was at the event... oh well.

sorry Ray didn't get back to you.
so going 90.5 x 78? Nice combo...tough as nails, will serve you well. Going for Engle 125?

Forgot to mention, my friend Kyle Madden and I built him a 2016 back in mid 1990's, he refers to it as the Grateful Dead motor, anyway, we set it up to live a long life. Last I heard it had nearly 160K miles on it and only came out of car for clutches.

It's cool, I got to talking with Jose from DPR and couldn't resist a chance to take the plunge! ;D  This is the first ever stroker engine for me, so I'm totally stoked.
I'm rethinking my choice of sticking with 1.1 rockers.  Would cams that utilize 1.4 rockers be easier or harder on lifter bores?  There's a lot of details I need to clarify before I start the build.  I'm trying to map out as much as I can before building it, especially for the bottom end.
What I'm really looking at is an engine that can be driven on the street, though by no means will it be a "daily driver," per say.  Weekend warrior at best.  I think an RPM range of 2 to 6000  fits me best, though, judging from what your earlier posts said, Jim.

1.4 cams "should" be easier on lifter bores because they typically have less lift than a 1.1 cam does @ lobe. But then you have a lot of lift @ valve and spring that they have to contend with.
The W series cams are perfect street cams. The 125 should fit the powerband you want and not kill parts in the short or long run.

jim, how about running 1.25 rockers on a 1.4 cam then?
just a thought...

I did that on my last 2165 with the FK45 after breaking 6 valve springs w/ 1.4's

cam lived, no real change in performance.

running 1.25 on my Pauter cam now with about .530" @ valve.
I'm sure my rig needs springs now but have had no time to work on it lately.

new springs already? how many miles have you put on it?

about 4-5000 miles now

That's what I did (1.25s) with my FK-44 on my 2 liter.  But then it only has 65k miles on it so far.

Out of curiosity, what do folks recommend for having heads done?  Should I buy a new set of 044s, or whatever other heads people may recommend and have them ported and worked on, or do you recommend going with a used set such as these:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=790624

Just out of curiosity, wondering what folks recommend in terms of cost versus quality.  I've been planning to get a set of 044s and having them worked on, but was wondering what would be advisable in terms of getting a set of used heads and having them modified with bigger valves, port work, etc.

get VW castings and send them to Jeff Denham.

Gotcha... happen to have his contact info, Jim?  Mucho appreciated! ;D

I would NOT get used heads. Get new heads that are set up for YOUR application. Everyone will have thier own opinion on who to use...

Regarding rods, I noticed that John C. at Aircooled.net recommended H beams as he said that less clearancing would be needed.  Would they be worth the expense in an engine such as I'm planning, or would clearanced stock VW rods be a solid enough bet?  Just doing my research and it seems just as I get one question answered a whole new crop spring up... ;D

They will be more than enough for your application.

Ryan, Dave Mason's 11 sec 78 stroke car runs stock VW rods right up to 9000rpm. I think you'll be ok.
Note: you may have to do some hand clearancing in your case. I run RIMCO Vw rods and had to dress lower webs a little to clear. No big deal, like i said.... even Bates can do it.  ;D

That's enough of an endorsement for me ;D  I'm definitely aware of Mason's car... beautiful ride and fast to boot.  I've been trying to decide whether to have a set of rods I have already done by Rimco or just buy a set already done and use my rods as exchange cores... I think it would be more cost effective to do the latter, judging by the labor involved and what not.

You can buy a set of new set of H Beam CB rods with ARP 2000 bolts for $5 more than rebuilt Rimco Supers and you don't need to deal with the core hassle. I like H-beams because they are lighter, stronger and take less clearancing and they are not 35 year old recycled rods.

http://rimcovw.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=181

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=152

I personally don't like the RIMCO Super rods.  I think that large bolt and the enlarged hole to accommodate it make the rod cap weaker.  I once asked Clyde why the Bergs did not do that on their rebuilt rods.  He told me that the bolt isn't what breaks it's the cap.  Go for the H-Beam rods.  That is a nice price for a great rod. 

Some of the aftermarket rods don't like welded cranks Ryan. Not a fluke either, I've seen it off and on for about 15 years. The side clearances have been inconsistent on a bunch of sets I have "tried" using. From memory, most of these were the Eagle rods. Never tried CB's. About 2 years ago, I went through it myself, Eagle 5.352 on a 78 DPR, the side clearances were far too tight. Tried a different DPR, same thing. tried a forged 78 same thing.  Same crank, but with a Vw rod, fell into place with .012-014". I've run Rimco rods up to 7000+ in more motors than I can remember and as far as I know, zero of the motors I have built (for others) have scattered. I know Bates had some issues with side clearances with his Bugpack 78 and whatever H beams he's running. Back in 1991 I was building my 2276 even the good old Bugpack Race rods I was using had to be sent out and narrowed.
For a hot street motor, for me, because of past frustrations with inconsistent fit, I'll stay with Rimcos VW's.

I appreciate the information, the more info I can gather beforehand the better off I am, I reckon!

My issues with the CB H beams and my Bugpack 78 were too wide of a side clearance. I originally bought Berg 191s VW rods but only had .010 side clearance (.895" width) which I think is too tight.

A set of new CB rods popped up cheap so I sold the Berg rods and now my side clearance is .019-.020" (.885 width). I've been told by many pro and experienced builders it is wide but acceptable so I'm gonna run them for now.

Next question: for clearancing the case, what is the best method to utilize?  I dont' have any air tools... best I can manage is a Dremel type rotary tool at this point... I realize I'll likely be working mucho time-o in getting things right, but just wondering as to what kind of "attachments" to utilize?  Or would it be better for me to send the case off to have it clearanced by RIMCO or somebody similar?

That's all you need.  Anything else is a waste of $$$.  Clearanced stock rods fit 78 stroke engines easily.

Dremel is good for some small clearancing and "adjustments" but if you have a new "basic" crankcase I would send it to Rimco or Brothers.. 

I thought RIMCO closed their doors??

Under new ownership, I believe, but not closed?  I'm pretty sure that's the situation.  Their web site is still up and running...

Yep, new owner is Dennis Hildebrand, a long time employee. They (Rimco) leased the building from the new building owners as the Riddles sold the building.

I just checked out DPR's web site today, and they offer clearance rods as well.. think I may just go ahead and go with them, seeing as how I already got a crank from them.

As for other internals, what's the hot ticket for lifters these days?  I'm assuming that I want to keep the valvetrain components as light as possible... I know there were some issues with Scat lifters in previous years.  Just curious as to what would work well in my application.

Here are the preliminary stats of what I'm building to date:

2017cc
78.4 DPR crank
90.5 'B' pistons
8.5 or 9:1 compression
40x35.5 or 40x37 heads
dual 45DRLA Dellortos
1-5/8 or 1-3/4 exhaust
lightened flywheel
and other details not necessarily pertinent to the question at hand...

I'm still debating between using a set of existing 1.1 VW rockers with an Engle 125 cam or buying a set of 1.4s to use with an FK-8 cam. I've been told in this thread, I think, that the FK-8 and 1.4's won't be as hard on the lifter bores, which has appeal for longevity sake, but on the other hand, this won't be a daily driver engine by any stretch. Ideal powerband will be from 2 to 6K RPMs.
 
Still wondering about lifters too?

Any suggestions on clutch and pressure plate? Car, a '70 Bug currently with little to no interior, with stock 4.12 IRS tranny, will be driven occasionally on the street, bracket raced on weekends here and there in the local 1/8 mile. I was thinking a 1700 KEP plate, but not sure what the hot ticket is for discs these days...

I tend to use the Daikin/Exedy metal woven disc.  I've run two in my '67 since 1990. But I never drive my car...           ;D