First stroker build

[bugnut68]

Cool, sounds good... and simple is my mantra philosophy!

[Arry]

Depends on the RPM range you want. The 120 is a good cam for 1800cc and under "hot" motors, good cam for mild drivers in 1900+. In your long stroke application, it will make torque, but will run out of steam up top. 6000rpm will probably be peak. If you want it to run from idle to 6000 cleanly, the 120 (or equivalent Web 110) will work. Personally, under 260' @ .050" in a stroker is boring. Over 270' and you have a wilder motor that wants revs.
The 125 Engle is a much better choice, in my opinion. It will run as low down as the 120 with the long crank, but give you a wilder ride up top. It is amazing how much of a dual personality cam the 125 is in a stroker. Sarge's car is a good example. Docile, quiet and very easy to drive sedately, yet, get on a freeway onramp and poke the gas and you're gone. My first stroker ran the 125, btw. It was a real fun driver, and was easy on parts.
Simple dual spring motor....
the 40mm intakes are going to work fine. It isn't so much valve diameter as it is how the air gets to the valve. If you open the valve up more (lift), you're giving the air a bigger window to get through too. I'd go 37.5 on exhaust, keep exh ports small, and run the 1-3/4 header.
In short, I am saying get ahold of Jeff Denham to do your heads.
So my suggestion, from experience, is 78mm crank (easier to put together, VW clearanced rods bolt on) x whatever bore you have, Engle 125 with 1.25 rockers, JEff Denham 40 x 37.5, Vw dual springs shimmed to your lift, 44mm+ twin 2bbl carbs, 9.0:1, full flow it, cool it, filter it... etc etc etc. To get 6500 revs out of it, depending on cc, you'll need at least a 38mm vent. Keep that in mind when looking for carbs. That is for 90.5 x 78
so if you go bigger, you'll need to shop for bigger vents.
I think a power band of 2000-6500 is ideal for a street motor. Parts last, and you'll be teasing the guys in V8's easy.
If you want something that's going to kill most everything else on 4 wheels, go for race gas motor. Run CR up over 12:1, FK89, 48IDAs and keep your floor jack handy.
Or if you want that ragged edge motor, the stroker with near 10:1 and the bite of the 86C Web with Denham's "street 44 x 37" heads (see louisb) is hard to beat.
Have fun,

Great post Jim. I really like this camshaft talk! 
I've got one question: you suggested to go for race gas when using a huge cam like a FK89, in order to run a high compression ratio. I was taking a look at the DKP member cars specs, and while many cars have compression around 12 or even 13:1, there are a few cars that rely on FK-89 cams but run a relatively "modest" compression like a 9.5:1.
Now, since DKP cars have always represented the pinnacle of the WV high performance street scene to me, I'd really like to know how a FK-89 street motor would perform in everyday driving with a pump gas compression.
I think Dave Mason's car is the perfect example.
 

[Zach Gomulka]

I'm looking to build a similar 2007 or 2110 with probably an Engle 125...

Stole this from another thread...

I've gotta ask, why are you "stuck on" these displacements? Not that they are bad motors, just curious to your reasoning.

[bugnut68]

Limited funds and I already have 90.5 barrels... I know I'll have to hunt down a set of 'B' pistons, but it's simply a matter of me going with as much as I already have as possible, which is also why I'm looking at sticking with a cam that can run 1.1 rockers.  I'm also trying to minimize machining costs due to a lack of locally available services.  I'll have to have any work done by mail order as it is, so I'm trying to limit the amount of mailing heavy packages as possible.

[Jim Ratto]

hi, did my buddy have anything you could use? He must have some 90 b's laying around... probably already balanced.

[Zach Gomulka]

Fair enough! Then I still reccommend the 78.4 from DPR, swinging a set of stock journal/length clearanced rods. 2017cc with a 125 cam, Tims stage 2 heads, 9:1, 1 5/8" header and some 45 Dells will get you around just fine

[bugnut68]

Hi Jim, chatted with Ray the other day... haven't heard back from him yet, so I may give him a call on my lunch hour!  I'll inquire with him on that when I do reach him.

Zach, I'm leaning along the 78mm route, though the temptation to go to 82 also lies strong.  I already have a good set of stock rods I could get reworked and better bolts installed into.

[Zach Gomulka]

An 82 with stock rods requires some healthy case clearancing, and like I said earlier I personally don't trust anything over 78 for a welded stroker crank. There just isn't much left of the original forging. Not that it can't be done (it has many times over I'm sure), it's just my personal preference.

Good luck!

[Jim Ratto]

ryan, seen it happen.... 82mm VW journal, especially with VW rods...  rod big ends smack the cam. So if you decide to go that way, look into clearanced cam and maybe even smaller base circle, Preston's motor was 82mm VW journal, with Scat 82, and Eagle rods, Web 86C. I mocked the thing up just for first checks... guess what... TINK... had to send cam back for clearanced and smaller base circle.
A 78mm motor is so easy to build. Even Bates could do it.

 

[bugnut68]

ryan, seen it happen.... 82mm VW journal, especially with VW rods...  rod big ends smack the cam. So if you decide to go that way, look into clearanced cam and maybe even smaller base circle, Preston's motor was 82mm VW journal, with Scat 82, and Eagle rods, Web 86C. I mocked the thing up just for first checks... guess what... TINK... had to send cam back for clearanced and smaller base circle.
A 78mm motor is so easy to build. Even Bates could do it.

 

I think I'll go the 78mm route, then.  Sounds like that's the route for me at this point!  I talked to Ray briefly today, and we'll chat later this weekend, I think... looking forward to seeing what he comes up with...

[stealth67vw]

A 78mm motor is so easy to build. Even Bates could do it.

 

Hey now. At least put up a smiley 78 was just as easy as a 69. Peas and steak.

[Jim Ratto]

[bugnut68]

Hey Jim, does Ray usually come to Sacramento for the Bug o Rama?  Depending on what he has, I'm interested in maybe making a purchase there so I can avoid shipping costs.  Hoping to hear something this week so we can set it up.

[Jim Ratto]

He usually does. I'll put a call into him and let him know to bring stuff for you (if you want).

[bugnut68]

He usually does. I'll put a call into him and let him know to bring stuff for you (if you want).

Cool, I didn't want to keep calling him and bugging him, so I figured I'd wait until I hear from him and see what we can work out.

[bugnut68]

Tried to call again today, and left a message... hoping to chat with him so's if we make a deal we can do it at Sacto rather than have to ship parts. 

[bugnut68]

Well, call me impatient, but after two unreturned phone messages, I gave up... had a great time at Sac and wound up buying my 78.4 mm crank from Jose at DPR.  Very, very nice guy and I look forward to putting this beast together!

Odd I never heard back from Ray, but I talked with someone else who said he was at the event... oh well.

[Jim Ratto]

sorry Ray didn't get back to you.
so going 90.5 x 78? Nice combo...tough as nails, will serve you well. Going for Engle 125?

Forgot to mention, my friend Kyle Madden and I built him a 2016 back in mid 1990's, he refers to it as the Grateful Dead motor, anyway, we set it up to live a long life. Last I heard it had nearly 160K miles on it and only came out of car for clutches.

[bugnut68]

sorry Ray didn't get back to you.
so going 90.5 x 78? Nice combo...tough as nails, will serve you well. Going for Engle 125?

Forgot to mention, my friend Kyle Madden and I built him a 2016 back in mid 1990's, he refers to it as the Grateful Dead motor, anyway, we set it up to live a long life. Last I heard it had nearly 160K miles on it and only came out of car for clutches.

It's cool, I got to talking with Jose from DPR and couldn't resist a chance to take the plunge!   This is the first ever stroker engine for me, so I'm totally stoked.
I'm rethinking my choice of sticking with 1.1 rockers.  Would cams that utilize 1.4 rockers be easier or harder on lifter bores?  There's a lot of details I need to clarify before I start the build.  I'm trying to map out as much as I can before building it, especially for the bottom end.
What I'm really looking at is an engine that can be driven on the street, though by no means will it be a "daily driver," per say.  Weekend warrior at best.  I think an RPM range of 2 to 6000  fits me best, though, judging from what your earlier posts said, Jim.

[Jim Ratto]

sorry Ray didn't get back to you.
so going 90.5 x 78? Nice combo...tough as nails, will serve you well. Going for Engle 125?

Forgot to mention, my friend Kyle Madden and I built him a 2016 back in mid 1990's, he refers to it as the Grateful Dead motor, anyway, we set it up to live a long life. Last I heard it had nearly 160K miles on it and only came out of car for clutches.

It's cool, I got to talking with Jose from DPR and couldn't resist a chance to take the plunge!   This is the first ever stroker engine for me, so I'm totally stoked.
I'm rethinking my choice of sticking with 1.1 rockers.  Would cams that utilize 1.4 rockers be easier or harder on lifter bores?  There's a lot of details I need to clarify before I start the build.  I'm trying to map out as much as I can before building it, especially for the bottom end.
What I'm really looking at is an engine that can be driven on the street, though by no means will it be a "daily driver," per say.  Weekend warrior at best.  I think an RPM range of 2 to 6000  fits me best, though, judging from what your earlier posts said, Jim.

1.4 cams "should" be easier on lifter bores because they typically have less lift than a 1.1 cam does @ lobe. But then you have a lot of lift @ valve and spring that they have to contend with.
The W series cams are perfect street cams. The 125 should fit the powerband you want and not kill parts in the short or long run.

[Diederick/DVK]

jim, how about running 1.25 rockers on a 1.4 cam then?
just a thought...

[Jim Ratto]

jim, how about running 1.25 rockers on a 1.4 cam then?
just a thought...

I did that on my last 2165 with the FK45 after breaking 6 valve springs w/ 1.4's

cam lived, no real change in performance.

running 1.25 on my Pauter cam now with about .530" @ valve.
I'm sure my rig needs springs now but have had no time to work on it lately.

[Diederick/DVK]

new springs already? how many miles have you put on it?

[Jim Ratto]

new springs already? how many miles have you put on it?

about 4-5000 miles now

[Bruce]

I did that on my last 2165 with the FK45 after breaking 6 valve springs w/ 1.4's.

That's what I did (1.25s) with my FK-44 on my 2 liter.  But then it only has 65k miles on it so far.

[bugnut68]

Out of curiosity, what do folks recommend for having heads done?  Should I buy a new set of 044s, or whatever other heads people may recommend and have them ported and worked on, or do you recommend going with a used set such as these:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=790624

Just out of curiosity, wondering what folks recommend in terms of cost versus quality.  I've been planning to get a set of 044s and having them worked on, but was wondering what would be advisable in terms of getting a set of used heads and having them modified with bigger valves, port work, etc.

[Jim Ratto]

get VW castings and send them to Jeff Denham.

[bugnut68]

get VW castings and send them to Jeff Denham.

Gotcha... happen to have his contact info, Jim?  Mucho appreciated!

[Zach Gomulka]

I would NOT get used heads. Get new heads that are set up for YOUR application. Everyone will have thier own opinion on who to use...

[bugnut68]

Regarding rods, I noticed that John C. at Aircooled.net recommended H beams as he said that less clearancing would be needed.  Would they be worth the expense in an engine such as I'm planning, or would clearanced stock VW rods be a solid enough bet?  Just doing my research and it seems just as I get one question answered a whole new crop spring up...