How to make 12's?

[cpalma]

Hi guys,

just need your expert advise on improving my times - pb so far is 13.2s for around 1800lbs w/ me in it, using a 2.2L, 10.5:1cr, fk10, ida's with 40vents, 1 5/8" header w/ 2.5 muffler, 1.48 3rd and 1.125 4th on 24" advan radials. did the same best time previously on taller 26" radial tires and a stinger so i feel the current setup is already maxed out

other than the 3rd and 4th gears, a zf, and a stronger sidecover, the rp is stil a stock 4.12 as well as the mainshaft - so slicks is out of the question.

my thoughts for the cheapest and simplest way to achieve my goal are: port the big beef manifolds a little bigger, iincrease vent size to 42mm, replace the header with a 1 3/4" one.

will these changes be enough to meet my goal? will a cam swap to an 86c and cr raised to 11:1 be of help?

Thanks...Cris

by the way, here's my car in one of the local races in the Philippines last month:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Tf-wPZmsyOQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Tf-wPZmsyOQ</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ou8q6Tm0j78" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ou8q6Tm0j78</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/HXFIQ9v7Ddc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/HXFIQ9v7Ddc</a>

[richie]

what heads are you using? what valve sizes/proberly most of your improvement would be in them,with that short a tyre you need to turn some rpm so maybe a fk87 or even fk89 would help you more,then a 1 3/4 header as well

cheers richie,uk

[Black Sheep]

Nice to see someone beating Civic's   

[cpalma]

thanks Richie for the reply,

i use 044 cnc wedges from cb with 44x37.5mm valves, i installed them out of the box...i think you're right on the rpm as i cross the line in 4th at around 6500-6700rpm - reason why i'm thinking of using a cam with more power up top.

will the 86c fit the bill or is the fk87 better?

this is by no means a race only bug, right now i love the fk10 on the street as low rpm torque is stil ok. funny you should mention the fk89 as i have a used good one with me now, i'm hesistant to use it thinking i will loose street driveability but i may be wrong. if i go and try it, will 11:1 cr be enuf?

i only need to reduce chamber cc by 3cc to get 11:1, i now have 53cc and will need 50cc chambers then


49-rag,

i feel the same way and it's fun, i'm the only beetle participating in local drags in this parts....events normally reach up to 100 cars or so, 90% are honda's. but in the class where i join 12.5-13.99s index it goes down to 20 or less cars so it's not that bad.

[richie]

thanks Richie for the reply,

i use 044 cnc wedges from cb with 44x37.5mm valves, i installed them out of the box...i think you're right on the rpm as i cross the line in 4th at around 6500-6700rpm - reason why i'm thinking of using a cam with more power up top.

will the 86c fit the bill or is the fk87 better?

this is by no means a race only bug, right now i love the fk10 on the street as low rpm torque is stil ok. funny you should mention the fk89 as i have a used good one with me now, i'm hesistant to use it thinking i will loose street driveability but i may be wrong. if i go and try it, will 11:1 cr be enuf?

i only need to reduce chamber cc by 3cc to get 11:1, i now have 53cc and will need 50cc chambers then


49-rag,

i feel the same way and it's fun, i'm the only beetle participating in local drags in this parts....events normally reach up to 100 cars or so, 90% are honda's. but in the class where i join 12.5-13.99s index it goes down to 20 or less cars so it's not that bad.

Ok well unless you have the longer valve and spring package you are going to run out of space on the spring and run into coil bind with much more lift,an 87 would be the limit really,I havent run an 86c myself so have no real time data to work from,there are alot of people using it successfully.What octane fuel can you get /are using? more compression will help wake it up some but it wont help if you dont have the right fuel for it

cheers richie,uk

[cpalma]

thanks for the input on coilbind, i'll look out for that when i swap the cam, if the fk89 pushes it too far, i'll get either the 86c or the fk87. i had to order the drd rev package w/ valves, retainers, and keepers replacing the set that came with the heads since top honcho of drd told me it wud give enough clearance before bind if i elect to go for higher lift cams. i'll check later. i use shell v-power but rating for it here is 96 octane at best. oh yeah, i also want to keep it on pump gas.

thanks again...love how your cabrio takes off...more power 

[Black Sheep]

Try running shell optimax 96 - 98 octane with a shot of Millers octane +   

[Jim Ratto]

first, before anything, I would ask what your MPH is going thru the lights.

[Jim Ratto]

By the way, the 86C is very much streetable, especially with your gears and tire diameter. I ran it in my driver 2276 that went 12.60's... to me it was MORE driveable than the FK10, and I know other guys that have had similar experiences. The FK10 in my 2276 seemed to fall off @ 6800 or so, the 86C went 75 no problem. You will come close to spring bind, depending on rockers you run and your geometry. Best way to check is the way berg described in his old blue tech books... dial full lift at every valve with real springs (not light checking springs), then put heads in drill press with dial indicator and check bind on every valve and compare to lift... make sure you have at least .050", and that is even on the (real) tight side. I had to do some machining of pockets on my old Denham wedgeport VW heads to get ERCO triples to go the lift... Berg made some tall retainers too designed to work with their triples that gave more room too.
But I wonder, if you have the mph going through lights... (104+?) then you've got the HP, you just need to get the car down the lane quicker (traction, driving...shift points, etc)

what is your mph?

[cpalma]

wow....lots of realworld experience from those who've tried it....thanks!!

49-rag,
we only have shell v-power 96 oct here but no optimax...we don't have miller octane booster only cyclo brand they say adds 3 points on octane (1 small bottle to 16 gals.). at my current cr of 10.5:1 i've had no pinging even with lighter 009 springs and 32 deg. max advance at full load. i just don't know when i raise the cr to 11:1.

hey Jim,
been reading up on your posts even from the orig. cal-look and it's helped me a lot in getting my car down the track with no issues...i appreciate it.

i love the fk10 on the street, did the 17 deg. initial advance thing when i recurved the 009 and it's great, no ping even when i get on the throttle 2k and up. if the 86c is even better then wow, my only concern would be lifter bore wear - will this not be an issue since i don't plan on having mine rebushed. you're right about the fk10 as it is in this rpm range (6500-6800) where i notice power in wot at 4th to fall off...if u notice in the last video against the blue honda (12.65 dial and did a 12.7) - that guy won via holeshot. i had him by a car length going into 3rd...oh well. so i'm looking to hold the power in a higher rpm to complement my current gears and wheel diameter.

7500rpm i agree wud be the ticket, it's now a toss up for me between the 86c and the fk87, which then is best for my intended use (mid 12's, 50/50 street and track, longevity)?

i'll do the coilbind check per valve as u suggest when i get around to replacing the cam, i have a month to prepare. i use bugpack 4047 duals i got from drd. funny u mentioned retainers with more room since i did this once on an engine i built earlier, had the undersides of these turned 0.5mm thinner to increase clearance before bind, the 1955cc w/ 4046 duals is stil in use for circuit racing on a KG with no issue.

you're almost spot on in the speed thru the traps - best so far is 102.97mph when best e.t. of 13.23s was posted.

you're also right about not getting it off the line quick enuf but this is a compromise i have to make due to my flimsy tranny. i cud only manage a best 60ft of 2.1+s to as high as 2.3s due to the tires. started with stock torsions and bus snubbers and now use 28bars w/o snubbers. also tried bet. 16-28 psi on the tires w/ varying launch rpm's bet. 4500-6500 but can't seem to go lower than 2.1sec. the tires always break loose...

i'm hoping to make 12's w/ the current 60ft by better driving and revving it a bit higher the rest of the way...possible?

[Zach Gomulka]

You have plenty of motor, although I think the engine would benifit some from a 1 3/4" header. You need more seat time, specifically to get your 60' down- there's 3 tenths right there.

[stealth67vw]

103mph is enough hp for mid- high 12s. Your 60ft is killing your ET. 13.20s on street radials is flying.

[Jim Ratto]

103mph is enough hp for mid- high 12s. Your 60ft is killing your ET. 13.20s on street radials is flying.

agreed. More Hp may make your mph faster, but probably won't subtract from your current ET. I wouldn't re do your motor... I would work on getting your 60' in the Sub 2's

On MH slicks, on a real cold and misty day @ Sears Point, my car was dragging its ass running 2.25 60fts.... and a resulting 13.29 @ 104.
same tires and motor in warm dry weather @ carlsbad was 1.71 60ft and 12.66

[cpalma]

thanks guys for the sound advice, pointing out where i'm missing it...

it appears now that anything to lower my 60 foot time will be a better investment, and make me dip into the 12's.

now for a different set of Q's  will drag radials like the bf goodrich g-force t/a cut it? can a stock mainshaft in my 4.12 box hold up or is the 9-tooth upgrade mandatory?

[Bruce]

can a stock mainshaft in my 4.12 box hold up or is the 9-tooth upgrade mandatory?

With a 10 tooth first gear, you are already on borrowed time.  You MUST upgrade to a 9 tooth first gear.  Then you'll be fine with slicks.

[cpalma]

thanks Bruce, what i needed to hear...now i know what to do.....cheers 

[Fast Bug]

I would go for the 86c and keep the cr at 10.5:1. Weld the intake manifolds and port them max all the way up. swap the vents with 42's and go for a 1 3/4" header

[Fiatdude]

one word TURBO

[cpalma]

fast bug,

thinking the same but also need to fix my traction issues...

Fiatdude,

turbo is really tempting, i've seen too many make better times with less motor after upgrading to one...i just want to max out my n/a setup first. maybe later i'll also give it a try 

[kingsburgphil]

Hi guys,

just need your expert advise on improving my times - pb so far is 13.2s for around 1800lbs w/ me in it, using a 2.2L, 10.5:1cr, fk10, ida's with 40vents, 1 5/8" header w/ 2.5 muffler, 1.48 3rd and 1.125 4th on 24" advan radials. did the same best time previously on taller 26" radial tires and a stinger so i feel the current setup is already maxed out

other than the 3rd and 4th gears, a zf, and a stronger sidecover, the rp is stil a stock 4.12 as well as the mainshaft - so slicks is out of the question.

my thoughts for the cheapest and simplest way to achieve my goal are: port the big beef manifolds a little bigger, iincrease vent size to 42mm, replace the header with a 1 3/4" one.

will these changes be enough to meet my goal? will a cam swap to an 86c and cr raised to 11:1 be of help?

Thanks...Cris

by the way, here's my car in one of the local races in the Philippines last month:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Tf-wPZmsyOQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Tf-wPZmsyOQ</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ou8q6Tm0j78" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ou8q6Tm0j78</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/HXFIQ9v7Ddc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/HXFIQ9v7Ddc</a>

This topic is driving me crazy, cam/carb/comp, with known components have been perfected years ago. Some decades ago! 125/130/140 Blah Blah Blah!
The best builders know the best combinations to suite your application---period!  You don't have to reinvent the wheel!! If you want to built some (new)
morpho-dyte bastard be my guest. Unless you've got a new head/cam/carb, it's already been done, perfected or rejected. The key word here is "combination",
pick the shop with the track record that best suits you, spend some money with them. Most will spill their guts for a few bucks/euros, let them spend countless hours on the dyno trying new combinations of parts, It's money well spent. You come away a fast/reliable combination that works, you're happy..they're happy.

Let your buddies spend their money on their version of the UXB, mean while you're checking out that new.........?

Others, feel free to opine. 

[cpalma]

hi Kingsburgphil,

I totally agree with you on not re-inventing the wheel...reason why i'm most interested to know exactly how those old-timers did those times using quite possibly less stellar parts with an after-market not as well established as it is these days. I kept to a "cook book" combo but soon found out making the number (e.t. expected) wasn't as easy as it looked.

In my case, everything's DIY - there's not a shop or expert builders around these parts that know vw's to the same degree as guys in this forum do, at least not to the level I want to achieve 12's. As far as i can remember there have only been at least 3 cars here since the late 80's to this time that have made 12's, the fastest being 11.89s and that was 10 yrs ago. Just goes to show how few and far between knowledge on how to set these cars up for race use is, in my neck of the woods.

I myself started on the hobby 4+ yrs ago so i'm a total newbie but thanks to the internet have slowly been able to educate myself on how these things work and to build one that actually works long enough to have fun.

I consult here to know where i missed something and to fine tune the set-up to make this "known" combo perform as expected. It's the next best thing to having a "shop with the track record" to help me meet my objective.

Btw I just recently did a pb of 12.8s @ 103.9 last weekend so visiting this forum often has been time well spent and i'm a happy camper.

[Trond Dahl]

Congratulations on that PB!

[cpalma]

Thanks Trond....also for putting up and maintaining this site that's a wealth of info for guys like me....Cris

[Fiatdude]

Why spend money on a N/A setup to throw half of it away when you go turbo -- Why take half steps when the there's big giant steps out there

[ugly duckling]

i dident read the hole thread  but what i did it seems you are in need of some kind of clutch manigment longer clutch arm or some other form of one. i diddent see the starts but im sure you are spinning drasticly with the radials. cam is not your prolem if you want to spin even more go ahead and put a bigger cam. if any thing you need to go smaller on the cam if you are going to stay with the RADIALS. you need a radial that has a good amont of side wall that works like a tall slick (RINCLE) getting your spin down to min without droping off the lower power band. you can listen or not thats cool. i had terrible luck with the k10 the worst sure it love to rev but thats not going to cut it in the start tring to get that car to leave on REAL STREET radials . been there done that . real radials are a trickey thing but goals like low 12s can be acheved just gotta keep trying and when you reach it more power to ya  my goal is 11s some day itel happen . test and tune test and tune .good luck to ya .BTW  theses are the actual tires and wheels that went 12.44 at 109mph running out of gas in a littel over 2g with me 63 bettel 11s were there i just couldent back it up. next time . its comen. keep tring youl get it . UD .     

[ugly duckling]

also i respect what you are doing. the car sounds great keep up the good work . UD .

[ugly duckling]

sorry to be a pest. my wheels were turing last night when i was sleeping . and i forgot to mention probably one of the most important things and thats SUSPENTION if that isent right 12s on radials will never happen. slamed front end cars they may look cool to some will never work properly and are fircely hard on gear boxes. on a heave car like yours you are better with a level flighted car with the front end that gives. maybe you alredy know all these things idunno. just thought i would mention. again good luck to ya . UD .

[cpalma]

Hi Fiatdude, you got a point there it's just that right now i feel i still haven't mastered/maxed out the tune on my N/A motor to stop trying. Also, forced induction will be another steep learning curve for me so you're right, baby steps first...

UD, thanks for the encouragement man, i appreciate the tips on how to get this moving. You hit the nail on the head - the suspension setup right now doesn't give me maximum weight transfer to the rear wheels to help traction - will keep trying.

Btw, i love your car with those wheels, the picture was you doing a burnout in one of those "real street" deals i think in vegas? - i have it as a wallpaper on my PC 

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