bare bones, keeping it simple, getting back the the VW roots....

[Jim Ratto]

Thinking about the typical hot rodded VW of today, what with 84mm cranks, aluminum cases, 4" pistons, 48mm+ valves... things sure have come a long long way from the Okrasa kits for the 36hp, the 88mm "big" ( ) bores, and the introduction of the dual port VW cylinder head. One might think, "If it doesn't have 200+ hp, and run deep into the 12's thru the traps, it must be a big dud and NO fun.", which is a shame.
With a light car like the Type 1 VW, a good time can be had, truly, with much less firepower. I've always thought the stock 1600 would make a great base from which to augment, not in huge jumps of displacement, but rather in moderate tuning efforts, trying as damn hard as I could, to utilize as much of the original VW-unit as possible, yet update its power delivery, and sharpen its character. A goal of 125hp should make for a lively car. Figure a zero to sixty mph in the mid sixes, and a 1/4-mile of 14-15 secs. Above all.... reatining a very Germanic character.
When I was younger, I did build something along these lines, and it sure was fun. Compared to the single port 1500, and later the stock cammed 1641, it was light years ahead in power and response. Honestly, it probably made no more than 90hp, but its powerband, sound and lively personality is what made it so much fun. Sure, now that I'm older, it's easier to follow that old adage "there's no replacement for displacement", but I still think there is something very admirable and jewelike about the Volkswagen when, for the most part, is left alone. A nice 87 or 88 bore engine, with a pair of small IDFs or even Solex 40PII's, stock valved dual port heads with smoothed and softened port contours, increased cam timing (think 120 Engle), and a nice tuned header, the ubiquitous 009 or 010, and a step up in compression. Nothing that hasn't been done before really, but rarely seen in these days of "over the top" scary motors. The tuned, smaller cc engine, while it may not spit diffs out and eat axles for lunch, still has its own certain charm.
While some might say "why bother, you can build a 1914 for a little more money", that's not the point. For a fun ride, my point is, you don't NEED 1900+cc...  really, thinking of it, 150+hp in a 1900lb car is really bordering on a bit insane and a little ridiculous. But yeah, lots of fun.
Comments?

[Donny B.]

I agree Jim.  My first was a pretty much stock 1600 with an Engle 100 cam.  It had some good stuff like a new engine case and counterweighted crank.  It was fully balanced, but had the original 1300 single port intake manifold and stock carb.  009 for ignition.  It would rev to 6000 in first and second (floating the valves for sure), but it was a lot of fun.  I had it full flowed with an Oberg filter.  I could cruise at 75mph all day and never overheat it, even in Phoenix summer heat.  It had plenty of torque for a small motor and would pull many domestic cars on steep up-hills at speed.  The heads were stock.  When I went to rebuild the heads I took them to Dean Lowry.  I had floated the valves so bad that he couldn't even reuse the retainers, neve rmind the springs.  He had to throw away one head, it was so beat up.  He gave me a core and did the rebuild for very little money.  ....sure had fun with that motor.  After I upgraded to a bigger engine that became a loaner and about 4 or 5 other people got to use it for many more miles.

[67worshipper]

this is a great topic.ive always felt its all to easy to pick of the shelf parts without much thought and come up with a torquey monster.a 2276 can be built with every cam that a manufacturer makes and still be quick.its a different story at the smaller 87/88 x 69 motors.a cam in this size is much more critical to gain good driveability.the same goes for the heads.flowing standard valve sizes for optimum hp is an art but doable.it would be good for people to cut there teeth on these mouse motors not only for the talk down the pub but also to show what differences between carbs cams heads etc.personal acchievement is the reward for trying new things.you may surprise yourself perhaps put down on this thread your smaller built motors for reference to others

[Sarge]

Bare bones is how I got my start... it was all I could afford.  After driving stock 36hp and 40hp cars for a few years, the move to 1600cc with an Engle 110 cam, flycut single port heads, lightened flywheel, S&S headers and Zenith two barrel carb was a real eye opener.

[Rennsurfer]

Amen to that, Sarge. Back then, most of us all started out the very same way. We ran what we could afford... which wasn't much, then progressed on as time went by and we learned more.

Great topic, as usual, Mr. One. One I can fully relate to. Since I don't race my cars, I've always gone for the more mild engines 'cause I drove 'em EVERYwhere and wanted a cool running durable power plant. Heck, even my current single port engine is fun to drive. It pegs the speedo and does really well on the freeway. It's doing it's job till I can put away some cash for a more stout one. In the meantime, I'm diggin' the great mileage.

If the new one does under 13 sec. ¼ mile runs or a little slower, I'll be happy. You're right, not everyone needs a huge/fast engine for these cars to be fun.

[Jim Ratto]

Thought you'd have some good feedback here, Mark, thank you.
While 48IDAs and magnetos and the related "required kit" are cool, they are in no way "mandatory" for a cool, fun hot rod VW. I've always openly dug the off the wall stuff, even if it wasn't super fast. I've always been more tilted towards the "sports car" side of things than the out and out drag car stuff, myself, and though they're ungodly slow, there is still something very cool about a stock Volkswagen. Sort of in a grandfather clock sort of way. I think, instead of revamping the entire deal with a pile of aftermarket stuff, an engine that uses alot of oem, or genuine, original stuff, and is only enhanced, and makes 125hp or so, would be very impressive. Like 67worshipper mentioned, you can't really go "wrong" building a 2276 with some Engle cam and CNC this and MSD that... but try it with the classic 88 x 69, and you've got to think before you start screwing stuff together.

I think 87 or 88 x 69, 8.5:1, stock heads wiith reworked ports, .450" x 252' @ .050", dual 2bbl Solexes with orig Knecht filters, big tube heater, all stock genuine cooling tin, 4-into-1 header, etc. Simple and strong.

[danny gabbard]

Kinda what I'm doing with my 62 bug, Nothing radical but have fun with it.The older I get, The less spare time I have for working on something all the time. I'm just building something I can get out on the road and enjoy it.

[Rennsurfer]

I think 87 or 88 x 69, 8.5:1, stock heads wiith reworked ports, .450" x 252' @ .050", dual 2bbl Solexes with orig Knecht filters, big tube heater, all stock genuine cooling tin, 4-into-1 header, etc. Simple and strong.

Alrighty, then.. you now have my full attention. That, right there, would RULE in my car. Everything painted black 'cept the gray manifolds, though.

[lawrence]

Cool topic, Jim. I would build something like this: 1600 or 1641, SP heads, kadrons, stock cam or webcam 73??, 8.5-9.0 CR, stock appearing exhaust, german engine tin. But I would like to have this in a beck speedster. Silver or Strato silver with red interior. Someday....

[louisb]

Hey Jim, cool topic. The 1500 SP motor with dual kads, 010. exhaust & 1.25 rockers was a lot of fun to drive. Tons of low end troque where you need it on the street and it ran great with stock gears.

--louis

[javabug]

I ran a similar combo as Louis mentioned above, without the rockers.  Ran good for what it was. 

Then I "stepped up" to my 92x69 stocker.  I liked to call it a stocker because it was a late DP with VW cam, heads, VW ratio rockers, and 92s...kinda odd but I got it that way and just used it to get inside a VW engine myself.  Did the bearings, had the heads rebuilt, and transferred the Kads, 019, 1.5" merged with heat and dual muffs.  Big improvement over stock but nowhere near what you've got in mind Jim.  I would have loved a cam and bit more compression, but ran it as I got it.  Kept me almost entertained.

[Dave Rosique]

Here's one for ya... remember, I was just a 16 year old kid 

Turn the wayback machine to 1973 or so... my first "HOT" engine  : Started with a T3 1500S and with the assistance of a very handy neighbor we installed an H4 Howard cam (I think), HAND lightened the pistons & connecting rods, lightened and drilled the 6V 200mm flywheel, added an EMPI oil pump / filter, honed the cylinders, hand ported the SP heads, lapped the valves, added some used dual valve springs, milled the heads for high compression, ran a Holley 2bbl "Bugspray" with an EMPI intake manifold, S&S header complete with LOUD glasspack, 010 distributor, power pulley. I think the only new parts were rings, gasket set and a flywheel seal. That motor was such a blast to drive... it revved quick like a motorcycle, the thing loped at idle like a drag car (in part to the rich running Holley) and really ran quite respectable... um... until it dropped an exhaust valve... oh well, I got several months of HARD TEENAGE USE out of the thing.

I know the old 1500 was a junkyard engine, but it was a good learning experience using mostly VW parts.

~DR.

 

[kingsburgphil]

In the late 70's when I worked at FAT we did several 901 5 speed conversions. 80 hp and a Porsche gearbox was a memorable combination, something VW should have done.
Nowdays, maybe a 100hp, better brakes and a little chassis upgrade just to keep up with traffic would do the job. 

[Rennsurfer]

901 Tranny... NICE! That's gotta be cheaper than the usual VW 5 speed conversion with more drivable gears (read: non-race and more freeway friendly).

[Bill Schwimmer]

I like fast, scary, reliable cars. Is that okay also ?

[Rennsurfer]

I like fast, scary, reliable cars. Is that okay also ?

Sure. But this thread is for us people that prefer not-so-fast, mildly intimidating, very reliable cars.

 

[RFbuilt]

the one/jim   awesome thread/topic as usual..

i like this,   this is also one of the reasons for the planned engine of mine (88x74)    i know and been told too many times, it would cost the same to do a 90.5x76 ( lol sure.. how many 1955s are out there? alot )   

and as everyone mentioned, thats easy and parts can be had left n right, 

for reasons i was never around in the 60s 70s and even 80s lol

i am doing the 88x74 , 

Sarge, im sure jim, and many others already fell and scratched their knees on the pavement at one point
i do wana fall and scratch my knees too..  so i can "feel" the fun,  the fun in going thru parts, making things work.. or making them not work LOL  i seriously think thats what makes the hobby unique  ,   the "wanting" to experience it,

come to think of it , Jim!  the 1979 brazil issue beetle (mine) needs rebuilding,  now im thinking
a sporty 88x69  should do?  aside from the 88x74  hehe

[BeetleBug]

I like fast, scary, reliable cars. Is that okay also ?

Sure. But this thread is for us people that prefer not-so-fast, mildly intimidating, very reliable cars.

 

Or more correctly; Sure. But this thread is for us US people that prefer not-so-fast, mildly inimidating, very reliable cars

 

[RFbuilt]

crap im  not in the u.s 


 

[Rennsurfer]

i like this,   this is also one of the reasons for the planned engine of mine (88x74)    i know and been told too many times, it would cost the same to do a 90.5x76 ( lol sure.. how many 1955s are out there? alot )   

Cool! My roommate ran that engine for many years and loved it. Ran great and pulled hard. Had IDA carbs, the first time around in a stock Ruby Red '66 sunroof Bug. Only other mod was the front end was slightly lowered. What a fun sleeper to drive. Next, he put 44 IDF carbs on and it was in his 1970 Westfalia for several years after that. One great Bus to drive... I miss that thing. All stock, with oxidized paint, and a single FourTuned muffler. He sold that rig to one of my co-workers when we worked for ARCO Pipeline Co. in the early '90s. That guy was on so many different drugs, he blew it up on a road trip. I wanted that engine so bad.

Build it! What cam would you use on that?

Or more correctly; Sure. But this thread is for us US people that prefer not-so-fast, mildly intimidating, very reliable cars

 

HAHA!! Good one, sir.

[RFbuilt]

i have an 88x74 thread 


i have the following cams handy

engle w110 , engle w120 (i have a w100 but then again.. i myt use it as a display LOL)

yes sir fred/mark/fred LOL i am most def building the 88x74  for sure (just completing sum small parts)

i have a feeling though, that the 88x69 motor im doing will get built first,
for my other beetle, 79' fat brazilian haha

[Ragtop]

In my ragtop I have a 76x88 engine, 1849cc with Kadron 40s aftermarket cam can´t remember which one right now. But is a really nice engine. It was built in the 80s but seized so I fixed it. I think it is a Claudes buggies crank.

/Johan

[RFbuilt]

cool beans!!

i have 2 sets of kadrons, prepped and set by Art thraen

one will go to the 88x74
 the other will go to the 88x69

hehehehe

[67worshipper]

i have an 88x74 thread 


i have the following cams handy

engle w110 , engle w120 (i have a w100 but then again.. i myt use it as a display LOL)

yes sir fred/mark/fred LOL i am most def building the 88x74  for sure (just completing sum small parts)

i have a feeling though, that the 88x69 motor im doing will get built first,
for my other beetle, 79' fat brazilian haha

keep us updated on your build up with plenty of pics please

[nicolas]

I hope Russel will chime in on this one, but it struck me that when he came to EBI1 (many moons ago now  ) he had a whole truck full of cars, so he could have picked the Randy Gates car, the chop top (ex Keiths), or a racecar if he would have liked to. but he opted to drive around to his hotel and cruisenight in Arnies 67 with a 1641, dual dells, w110,... engine and i had to ask him why not a different car and he said that this was the most fun car he had driven in a while. i think fun is indeed key in this topic.

[Dave Rosique]

OK,

I told you about my "junkyard" motor... about a year or so later (around '74-75) I built this: 69X88 stock crank, aluminum flywheel, Howard H2 or H4 camshaft, dual port heads (ported by me), stock valves, dual valve springs, heads milled for high compression, power pulley, 1 5/8" merge header, 010, and the crowning glory... Berg Special 42's.

In my stock bodied, stock geared '64 Sunroof, with that motor I was able to beat the school rich kid's 1969 Z-28 Camaro in a drag race... felt pretty good, back then VW's were the the butt of many jokes.

Lastly, around '77-78 my '59 Ghia was powered by the same motor as above with exception of replacing the 88's with 90's, milling the first fin off the heads, changing to an Engle 120, and 48 IDA's... that stock bodied Ghia, on race gas with close ratio transmission ran a best of 14.16 at about 95 mph in the quarter... I was happy with that!


~DR.
   

[67worshipper]

I hope Russel will chime in on this one, but it struck me that when he came to EBI1 (many moons ago now  ) he had a whole truck full of cars, so he could have picked the Randy Gates car, the chop top (ex Keiths), or a racecar if he would have liked to. but he opted to drive around to his hotel and cruisenight in Arnies 67 with a 1641, dual dells, w110,... engine and i had to ask him why not a different car and he said that this was the most fun car he had driven in a while. i think fun is indeed key in this topic.

anyone got pics of arnies motor? this thread is great and its stirred alot of people dave that was a quick ghia then for sure

[Bugsy]

Finaly an engine thread for me

Love to read about all the nice engine combinations everybody have in there cars, beacuse it´s one of the main recipes for a callooker.

But theres no fonds for any enginebuild right now with three kids in school. The Stock 1600dp will have to give me the fun ride for the buck.
Always wanted a "callokoker" since i was about 12, but it took me 28 years before it happened. A powerfull engine would sit right on i the back, but as one gets older there´s more to life so there will probably never be the "big cc, always wanted engine" after all.

Thats why this thread fits in my budget. Get the best out of the stocker and still having fun driving my "callooker"

[Jim Ratto]

My very first self built motor was a bit of a mutt. I was 17 years old, and had done as much as pull a motor on my own, so the thought of seeing the inner workings of my car's motor was like meeting God or something. Anyway, the parts began to pile up under my bed for a 1914, but the pile stopped when my pizza job showed its shortcomings, financially, so it got backed down to an 87 x 69, yet it was "turned up to 11." Months earlier I was driving a 1641 dual port, stock as stock can be, except for single 36DRLA and 009 and an S&S Header. Time and time again, other VW guys would blow my doors off. I got tired of being the momma's boy, so started collecting stuff in secret. At the same time, I began to get fascinated by small displacement old Porsche race stuff... still haven't got rid of that sickness.
Anyway, aftter months of learning about pinning main bearings, valvetrain geometry, cam gear to oil pump clearance...etc, my motor was in my car:
87mm cast Cimas
.040" align bored/thrust cut AE case
Rimco c/w 69mm crank
stock rods
12lb "black oxide" flywheel (Buggy House sold them way back, not sure where they got them, but they looked cool)
Engle VZ25 .470" x 288
out of the box 041 heads, flycut (not sure how much), 9:1
CB filter pump
Bugpack super sucker oil pickup
009
36 DRLA in the middle
S&S header

It idled horribly, @ 1500rpm. It was gargly and dim-witted under 4000rpm, but after that it would snap to attention and just sing. The 36mm carb always seemed like overkill on the previous engine, but now it gasped and growled and barked on this motor (later it was replaced with dual 36DRLAs). The exhaust note was super harsh and strident, once the thing cleared its throat... my neighbor hated me. I had this old VHS of a guy going around Riverside in an old 904 4 cam, and you could hear him pussy footing it thru the turns, but then lay into it once on the straights, and that Porsche would howl, and I think watching that video made my VW motor so much more fun... the Porsche sounded cranky and flat under its powerband, much like my car. But once it all came together, it would just shoot to 7000.
I drove this thing everywhere, for a few years. With the dual 36's, it behaved. It would idle @ 1000, and the power came on more progressively, and revved higher too. Once it sprouted the dual carbs, it was a car that could win the ocassional dumb ass street race in Pleasanton. My favorite "kill" was a stepside Chevy pickup w/ a 350 overbore, Performer manifold and Flowmasters. The guy couldn't believe it and all his ridiculing in high school about driving a VW developed into a friendship.
I can't say it was the fastest, or the most reliable, but it did things so differently than all the big motors that's been in my car since 1990, and really it was a ton of fun. I guess it showed me the door to bigger and better (?) things.
I built a similar setup for my ex's Super Beetle about 10 years ago, but despite being older and wiser, it came out a bit of a dud. I think it needed more cam.

[181]

My first engine in my´61 was a 1600 dualport with kadrons, 009 and 4-1 header and single quiet pack, not bad on old 4.37:1 box. My current engine in my 181 is a 1500 singleport with kadrons on steel manifolds, 010 distributor and Bugpack header with single muffler, also very nice, cool engine for driving around town. Won´t beat many cars, but can give them first surprise on traffic lights.

My intentions were to build 1835 engine on a singleport 1600 industrial case, with thickwals, massaged singleport heads, with 1.4 rockers and sime mild cam, bumped up compression to 8.5:1, lightened flywheel, Kadrons with old style air cleaners and berg linkage, 019 distributor and some vintage exhaust, but was talked to my 2276 engine kitchenbuild instead:-)