Jim and Carlos' attack on CA Hwy 33 (a nice Sunday drive)

[Rennsurfer]

WOW! Lawrence... really dig your car. I agree with Jim about a lighter wheel color. But it's your car.

Jim, please let us know what you end up with as far as front tire size. I have brand new 145 tires up front, but if there's something with the same side profile height and wider contact surface, I'd be down to sell my tires and trade up to wider ones. I'm very interested in doing that, in the future, after the new bigger engine and transmission is installed. Front discs will be my first upgrade before all of that, though.

What are your thoughts on a rear sway bar versus a camber compensator? My roommate had rear sway bars on his swing axle cars for years and they drove nice. I've never thrown a car into a turn with a compensator. Just wondering what the differences and/or pros & cons are all about. Realizing that the compensator will prevent (or at least try to) the inside rear wheel from folding under... does a sway bar do more in the better handling and stabilizing department?

[Jim Ratto]

WOW! Lawrence... really dig your car. I agree with Jim about a lighter wheel color. But it's your car.

Jim, please let us know what you end up with as far as front tire size. I have brand new 145 tires up front, but if there's something with the same side profile height and wider contact surface, I'd be down to sell my tires and trade up to wider ones. I'm very interested in doing that, in the future, after the new bigger engine and transmission is installed. Front discs will be my first upgrade before all of that, though.

What are your thoughts on a rear sway bar versus a camber compensator? My roommate had rear sway bars on his swing axle cars for years and they drove nice. I've never thrown a car into a turn with a compensator. Just wondering what the differences and/or pros & cons are all about. Realizing that the compensator will prevent (or at least try to) the inside rear wheel from folding under... does a sway bar do more in the better handling and stabilizing department?

My car is way more "predictable" wearing its compensator. Boot the throttle hard in a corner w/o it and you're sideways city, and not in a good way. I have some photographs somewhere comparing with and without (same corners, power on). You can clearly see the difference of the rear wheels' attitude. I wouldn't take my car out without the rear compensator.
Next time we meet up I'll give you the keys.
In a semi fast 2nd gear corner, the compensator works magic. You can "flick" the car into position, then set it in place with the power and rocket on. My old Firestone 205/65 radials didn't work as well as my new Goodyear 195's in this situation. The 'stones would chatter and hop (I think it was ballooned sidewalls) the Eagle GT's claw in and hold.
I need to put my front bar back on, maybe add a 2nd stock bar to top trailing arms (I used to run this in my early years... two stock bars, 1top, 1 bottom). Gosh I would love a set of Jayburn's front brakes.

[Rennsurfer]

I need to put my front bar back on, maybe add a 2nd stock bar to top trailing arms (I used to run this in my early years... two stock bars, 1top, 1 bottom). Gosh I would love a set of Jayburn's front brakes.

Wait... you're not running a front bar and only running stock drums? Dang. I gotta have, at very least, the front bar. Can't wait to get wide 5 lug pattern discs up front. I'm leaving the rears stock, since I already have late/wide axles.

[Jim Ratto]

I need to put my front bar back on, maybe add a 2nd stock bar to top trailing arms (I used to run this in my early years... two stock bars, 1top, 1 bottom). Gosh I would love a set of Jayburn's front brakes.

Wait... you're not running a front bar and only running stock drums? Dang. I gotta have, at very least, the front bar. Can't wait to get wide 5 lug pattern discs up front. I'm leaving the rears stock, since I already have late/wide axles.

car's steering is lighter w/o it.

[Rennsurfer]

car's steering is lighter w/o it.

Cool... to each their own. But I think you're a brave man. Mine already feels too light.

[Jason Foster]

  I run no sway bar and drums as well.    Long ago on my '63 I ran a sway away front bar for lowered front end. That thing was on rails.

[Rennsurfer]

Wow. I'm amazed at how many big engined Cal Look VWs have stock front drums. When I drive my car, I feel that my brakes are way too weak. Of course, I drive my cars hard.. but, still. I've asked a few people in person or simply looked at their cars, lately. I just assumed that they all were running front discs.

There's absolutely no way I'm putting a bigger engine in without upgrading my brakes first. I already feel the car's unsafe. Rather be over-braked than under. I was never like this till I owned my Porsche... dang car spoiled me (in the braking department) for life. Flew around for six years, driving like a madman in my orange '66 with stock brakes and semi-metallic shoes. Went through shoes and drums (along with rear tires) like candy. But back then, everything was cheaper and I got killer employee discounts from working in the VW industry. I miss that pricing structure.

 

[lawrence]

I have four wheel drum brakes and I drive my car hard all the time as well. I make sure I have plenty of space to stop in time with my 50+ year old brake system. It's my belief that our cars do not have enough front end weight for disk brakes especially with 135s and 145s. I want to add four wheel disk brakes to my car someday, but for now the drums work OK.

[Rennsurfer]

I have four wheel drum brakes and I drive my car hard all the time as well. I make sure I have plenty of space to stop in time with my 50+ year old brake system. It's my belief that our cars do not have enough front end weight for disk brakes especially with 135s and 145s. I want to add four wheel disk brakes to my car someday, but for now the drums work OK.

You're post is correct in theory, but since you (like other people that I know) have bigger tires than 145s, the front discs tend to do their job better. Personally, I don't see the absolute need for rear discs on these cars. Unless you're going for something totally different and/or tracking your car or driving as such. It's too overkill. Type 3 drums or the standard ones will do fine. But if you can afford the all around discs, go for it. Do the ones that  include the emergency brake cable provisions actually work?

[Jim M]

I run 175/65/15's up front, same height as a 145/15, drop spindles,2 in. narrowed beam, lowered narrowed sway bar, koni steering dampner,camber compensator, konis all away around, bought them @ Gotelli's speed shop in South San francisco 22 yrs ago.

[Rennsurfer]

Sorry for the thread-jack, Ratto.

I run 175/65/15's up front, same height as a 145/15

What width are your front wheels? I'm only using 4½" front wheels, so I was thinking of a lower profile 165. Unless a 175 isn't too wide.

[javabug]

Jim I switched to 185 60 15's in front about 4 years ago for all of the reasons you mentioned on my convertible that is set up for the use you described. I couldn't be happier with the braking and handling improvement it made. Just had to give up the dragster look. I am running 205 65 15's on the back. Car handles awesome with one click down in the back too, I know it isn't Cal-look, but it is soo fun on the twisty hilly back roads here.

Here's Mike's tires, for reference.  I can attest the car rides & handles excellent (but it is IRS).   



I love the LOOK of skinnies on the front, but honestly I do think about 175/65-15s when replacement time comes.

[Bruce]

It's my belief that our cars do not have enough front end weight for disk brakes especially with 135s and 145s.

This is not true.  Even with bicycle tires up front, discs will give you more stopping power, while at the same time are less likely to lock up in a panic stop.

[Rennsurfer]

That black Vert' looks pretty Cal Look to me (referring to the tires). What width wheels are on the front? That thing probably handles great if it has sway bars and decent shocks.

[javabug]

They're 6" all around, Mark.  Maize can answer the rest of the questions, as I don't know the other details.

[Rennsurfer]

They're 6" all around, Mark.  Maize can answer the rest of the questions, as I don't know the other details.

Thanks, Mike... that's all I was curious about on that car. I figured that the front wheels were wider than mine.

[Jim Ratto]

car's steering is lighter w/o it.

Cool... to each their own. But I think you're a brave man. Mine already feels too light.

I'd say any of us that pilot a 40 year old + VW on the freeways of modern life deserve to be deemed "brave." I'm no different.

Like I've said earlier, my car isn't about measuring what it can do or can't do. You won't see me entering some cryptic 1/4 mile e.t. in my sig here. Nope what I am proud for is being able to go out to the garage about any time I want, and just look at the car for five minutes or so, thinking about all the stories it could tell, then to hop in, squirt the throttle a new stabs, fire it up and just sit and listen as it warms through. I enjoy feeling the way the engine strums the car a bit when it's first fired, and how it takes a few seconds for the Webers to "wake up" before that real crisp and instant throttle response comes around. As it comes to the first "stage" of getting up to temp, I'll hear the idle clean up just a bit, and it takes on this really "nervous" quality, you hear it more in the cam gears and valvetrain changing pitch than in the exhaust. It's so cool.
Anyway, just those first 5-10 minutes mean more to me than actually quantifying why I've done any of this silly stuff for the last 23+ years to this old box of bolts. Going on an epic 3-4 hr drive in the mountains, for me, must be like drugs for others. I may change something on the car, but it's all done in feel, not e.t., braking distances or lateral g.

[Rennsurfer]

Going on an epic 3-4 hr drive in the mountains, for me, must be like drugs for others. I may change something on the car, but it's all done in feel, not e.t., braking distances or lateral g.

Amen, brother. You just summed it all up, right there.

[Neil Davies]

Here's a nice link to a tyre calculator: http://www.powerdog.com/tiresize.cgi

You can input the tyre size and it will tell you all sorts of details about them like sidewall height, overall tyre diameter, and how far out your speedo will be at 60mph. I know that certain brands of tyres will have slightly different characteristics (my old Avon Turbospeed 165's were much more balloon-like than a Firestone F560 for example), but it's pretty good for comparing similar sizes.

I reckon a 165/70 gives the same dimensions as a 175/65, and might fit the narrower BRM a little better, without bulging the sidewalls out.

As far as brakes go, I'm planning on using stock front discs and stock rear drums but with the front wheel cylinders to restore some balance. I've always used a stock rear Z-bar, and with the exception of my Ghia, which was lowered at the back too, I've always run a stock front ARB too.

[Jim M]

I run 175/65/15's up front, same height as a 145/15

What width are your front wheels? I'm only using 4½" front wheels, so I was thinking of a lower profile 165. Unless a 175 isn't too wide.

5 1/2 porsche alloys

[mg]

I liked the front discs as they don't pull left or right like drums can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sway_bar
Sway bars, Z bars, camber bar help control roll which helps control wheel camber and tire/road contact.
If someone made a trick set of front and rear adjustable sway bars you could tune out some of the big/little tires issues.

This is how some dial in a roadrace car.
Bring 2 sets of new tires, a bad set of tires can make your suspension feel as if its wrong.
Spring scan with sway bars removed.
Find the best spring rates that make the car neutral.
Next adjust shock valving to match spring rates.
Last reconnect and adjust sway bars.
After a day of driving with no sways this was a relief.

The other one's 10 year old front tires and no front sway bar may give him some front bite.
New tires may change that balance.
As a rule any tires even with full tread over 7 years old are toast.

Any VW suspension tips from the german look racers?

[Jim Ratto]

MARK- the palm tree is stuck in the box.

the thought of a mutil day, secret route, VW Beetle-only road trip sometime in 2010 still hasn't been forgotten, ADD or not. I've driven most of the non-freeway routes between here and, let's say, Sheep's place up north, and given 3 or 4 days, we could get plenty of VW guys together and have some laughs. Your car would be a blast, no matter the cc. My friends (up north) and I did this in our modern metal 5 years or so ago, 1500 miles, almost zero freeway... we stopped when we were tired (or thirsty), always in a place of beauty, and first things first, broke out the beer. Nothing better than driving your ride somewhere deep in the pine forests, parking with your buds, cracking a near frozen beer and contemplating the ether.

of course, every group needs somebody to bag on, so it's a must that Carlos DeAlabama come with. 

[Rennsurfer]

Right on, Jim. Sounds like a really fun trip.

LMAO @ Carlos DeAlabama.

 

[mg]

cool Dutch Police video showing accident avoidance using cadence braking, kind of a poor mans ABS.
A good technique for when you know you can't stop soon enough due to front brake lock up.
I used it last weekend trying to stop and turn on some loose gravel during our New Years canyon run.
" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xIezUcvgI7I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/xIezUcvgI7I</a>"
 

[kafercup]

MARK- the palm tree is stuck in the box.

the thought of a mutil day, secret route, VW Beetle-only road trip sometime in 2010 still hasn't been forgotten, ADD or not. I've driven most of the non-freeway routes between here and, let's say, Sheep's place up north, and given 3 or 4 days, we could get plenty of VW guys together and have some laughs. Your car would be a blast, no matter the cc. My friends (up north) and I did this in our modern metal 5 years or so ago, 1500 miles, almost zero freeway... we stopped when we were tired (or thirsty), always in a place of beauty, and first things first, broke out the beer. Nothing better than driving your ride somewhere deep in the pine forests, parking with your buds, cracking a near frozen beer and contemplating the ether.

of course, every group needs somebody to bag on, so it's a must that Carlos DeAlabama come with. 

That was a great trip!  We need to plan another one.......

[Jim Ratto]

MARK- the palm tree is stuck in the box.

the thought of a mutil day, secret route, VW Beetle-only road trip sometime in 2010 still hasn't been forgotten, ADD or not. I've driven most of the non-freeway routes between here and, let's say, Sheep's place up north, and given 3 or 4 days, we could get plenty of VW guys together and have some laughs. Your car would be a blast, no matter the cc. My friends (up north) and I did this in our modern metal 5 years or so ago, 1500 miles, almost zero freeway... we stopped when we were tired (or thirsty), always in a place of beauty, and first things first, broke out the beer. Nothing better than driving your ride somewhere deep in the pine forests, parking with your buds, cracking a near frozen beer and contemplating the ether.

of course, every group needs somebody to bag on, so it's a must that Carlos DeAlabama come with. 

That was a great trip!  We need to plan another one.......

meetcha where we saw that box-shaped dog in between Hollister and Coalinga that day. Where you scared the color out of me in the 20V turbo.

[Zach Gomulka]

Looks like you guys had a great time!

I also love the look of 145's, but I wanted AssHull's car to take corners, as well. I had 185/60's fitted to the 6" Cookie Cutters, and they fit great. It's got a 2" beam and dropped spindles. I don't think you'll be able to get a wider tire under your car Jim with the stock width beam and BRM's.

145's, 175/65's, and 185/60's are all almost perfectly equal in height. In a perfect world I would really like a 165/70. It would also be the same height as a 145.

[Rennsurfer]

meetcha where we saw that box-shaped dog in between Hollister and Coalinga that day. Where you scared the color out of me in the 20V turbo.

 

[kafercup]

MARK- the palm tree is stuck in the box.

the thought of a mutil day, secret route, VW Beetle-only road trip sometime in 2010 still hasn't been forgotten, ADD or not. I've driven most of the non-freeway routes between here and, let's say, Sheep's place up north, and given 3 or 4 days, we could get plenty of VW guys together and have some laughs. Your car would be a blast, no matter the cc. My friends (up north) and I did this in our modern metal 5 years or so ago, 1500 miles, almost zero freeway... we stopped when we were tired (or thirsty), always in a place of beauty, and first things first, broke out the beer. Nothing better than driving your ride somewhere deep in the pine forests, parking with your buds, cracking a near frozen beer and contemplating the ether.

of course, every group needs somebody to bag on, so it's a must that Carlos DeAlabama come with. 

That was a great trip!  We need to plan another one.......

meetcha where we saw that box-shaped dog in between Hollister and Coalinga that day. Where you scared the color out of me in the 20V turbo.

Oh yeah, the crazy Invasion of the Body Snatchers meets Deliverance dog.  That thing was spooky!

[John Rayburn]

Jim, are you going to let Lucas drive on the road trip?