WBX

[fredy66]

was tacking to some friends last day overs beer.
and i seed i wanted a bigger engine for my bug and the boys told me to get a wasser box
any of you have some info on whats involved

a stock Wbx bottom and 94 cylinders and some ported heeds

my not be 100 % cal-look but its hp

[deano]

It is possible and done, to convert a Wasserboxer engine to air-cooled, by milling off the water jackets. Rocky Jennings, in Walla Walla, Wasington has done it for both street applications and drag. Of course, you could always keep it water-cooled but you have to locate a radiator...

[fredy66]

all i need to do is miiling the case and on goes the 94 cylinders and t1 heeds ??

[fredy66]

what engine do i look for ??

[deano]

The cylinder head stud pattern is not T-1. It's not that easy.

[fish]

Its easier to use the stock 2.1L crank with 1.7 T4 flywheel in a converted T1 case rather than converting the WBX to aircooled. This way you have the benefit of both worlds or you could spend a bit more on heads, cooling and exhaust and convert T4 to T1.

[Rasser]

Its easier to use the stock 2.1L crank with 1.7 T4 flywheel in a converted T1 case rather than converting the WBX to aircooled. This way you have the benefit of both worlds or you could spend a bit more on heads, cooling and exhaust and convert T4 to T1.

I was thinking the same thing, and I guess the only thing that keeps people from using the type4 as a basis for their build, must be the money and availability of parts? With the type4 you can easily go beyond 4", and the initial design is much stronger than type1. If it´s intended for street use, then try to compare a type1 head to a type4 head. The type 4 head is much bigger, and has a much better cooling.

[nicolas]

but what is the benefit of using a WBX case?

[Rasser]

but what is the benefit of using a WBX case?

"Type4 case strength" that "accepts" type1 parts. Good case choice if you wan´t to go 4"

Thats the way I see it anyway... 

And there is also something about early and late wxb cases, they have different bearings. I just learned that yesterday from a fellow clubmember who had to get a early wbx case in order to fit his type1 berg crank with type4 journals.
I don´t know all the small details and measurements, maybe someone else can help?!

Personally I can´t see how a wbx or type4 build engine isn´t cal-look. 

[fredy66]

Its easier to use the stock 2.1L crank with 1.7 T4 flywheel in a converted T1 case rather than converting the WBX to aircooled. This way you have the benefit of both worlds or you could spend a bit more on heads, cooling and exhaust and convert T4 to T1.

intresting any more info on the work inwolved in converting a T1 case for a WBX crank. 
what part can i take from the the WBX in this convertion.
the thing here is to do it on a buget
thats the reason for not  doing a T4. T4 = 4xprice 
ok i know power is not free but whats wrong in trying to save some money (that i dont have)

[deano]

http://www.rockyjennings.com/

[Jeff68]

I was looking in to this very subject as well.  After seeing the show on the Discovery channel called "Bug emergency" or something it got me thinking about this as they used a VW 2.1 liter waterboxer crank (76mm stroke I think?) in their engine build.  These cranks are not counterweighted but a forged VW crank is always a good place to start IMO  .  I went to DRR's website and they modify these cranks for use in a type 1 case.  They can counterweight and perform the welded stroker modification to these cranks. I was trying to see if this would be a cost effective way to get a longer stroke crank as you could have a factory VW 76mm stroke crank and just have it counterweighted.  If you check the cost of the machine work, It's really not an inexpensive way out.   You do, however end up with a VW German forged longer stroke crank. 

Rocky Jennings does offer the machining services to do this conversion but again it isn't cheap (go to their website with Deano's link above).  I think if you found a good core Wasserboxer 2.1 liter shortblock with a good crank and case for a good price you could save some money but depending on how you look at it the effort may not be worth it as far as cost to what you end with in the end. I'm going to try and do this and I'm on the lookout for a 2.1 liter WB core engine.  Just my 2 cents, let me know what you all find out.

[Jesse Wens]

We're in the middle of doing the conversion.
The main reason we chosse to go down this route was the case itself.
Our old case needed lignboring , maybe other things to, it was going to set us back at least 200 euro.
A new case would be around 500 euro.
If you know some people that can do machining for a friendly price converting a wbx is also a couple of 100 euros.
So your on the same level of costs but it's more difficult to assemble, small things but a few of them.
Why would you do it?
The case itself is so much stronger that it will probably be the last case you use.
We choose to go this way, use the stock wbx cranck, type 1 cams drop in and use type 1 lifters after rebushing the bores.
After altering the headstudpattern for type 1 all type 1 cilinders adn heads can be used.

I have some limbach heads too which fit the standard wbx pattern, find some cilinders to go with those and you'll build a big engine easily.

We're not going for big though, a 69 cranck with 77 mm pistons will be used with a hefty dose of boost. 100 cc more than last year and low 14's in mind.

[gator_push]

I have been riding the same aircooled WBX for 10 years of hard street&strip racing without failures. Started with a 97x82 combination right from the beginning that the engine still retains. The conversion back then was done by Gerd Weiser (GWD). Udo took over a couple of years ago for serious output.
The great thing about this concept is that you get a block that is at least as sturdy as the Type 4 with the option to use a large assortment of Type 1 style performance parts. Consider the option to employ a crank >76mm for the WBX (by default designed for a Type 4 style flywheel). My engine had an 82mm Limbach crank installed from the beginning. Some people claim that the Limbach cranks are among the best ever made for aircooled VWs. I did some research on the company making these cranks and eventually came to the same conclusion (confirmed  by my own experiences).
One might consider the Typ 4 style flywheel connection as a constraint, not allowing the use of Type 1 clutch systems without modifications. Today I still use the 228mm bus clutch system with off-the-shelf parts (designed for race applications). Works great for hard launches with slicks (consistent 1.4 60 ft times), as always, the tranny turns out to be the weakest link.
Anyway, there are so many ways to go for street or dragracing WBX layouts, first you should probably determine the anticipated application profile before planning further steps. 

Udo can probably do the conversion machining on the case for you as well as giving more advice on this subject, just ask him.

[Jeff68]

I have been riding the same aircooled WBX for 10 years of hard street&strip racing without failures. Started with a 97x82 combination right from the beginning that the engine still retains. The conversion back then was done by Gerd Weiser (GWD). Udo took over a couple of years ago for serious output.
The great thing about this concept is that you get a block that is at least as sturdy as the Type 4 with the option to use a large assortment of Type 1 style performance parts. Consider the option to employ a crank >76mm for the WBX (by default designed for a Type 4 style flywheel). My engine had an 82mm Limbach crank installed from the beginning. Some people claim that the Limbach cranks are among the best ever made for aircooled VWs. I did some research on the company making these cranks and eventually came to the same conclusion (confirmed  by my own experiences).
One might consider the Typ 4 style flywheel connection as a constraint, not allowing the use of Type 1 clutch systems without modifications. Today I still use the 228mm bus clutch system with off-the-shelf parts (designed for race applications). Works great for hard launches with slicks (consistent 1.4 60 ft times), as always, the tranny turns out to be the weakest link.
Anyway, there are so many ways to go for street or dragracing WBX layouts, first you should probably determine the anticipated application profile before planning further steps. 

Udo can probably do the conversion machining on the case for you as well as giving more advice on this subject, just ask him.

This is great information, thanks for posting.  Could you list what parts that ae used in your engine?  Is the Limbach crank an aftermarket long stroke crank for the type 4 or the WBX?  If i understand correctly you're using a stock VW 228 mm bus clutch and pressure plate as well?  Is the engine in a type 1 beetle?  Is the VW cooling tin installed on the engine?  Is you car driven on the street?  Thanks for posting, I'm very interested in the WBX conversion.

[gator_push]

The forged Limbach cranks are not really aftermarket products designed for Volkswagen cars. They were designed for flat four aircraft engines where fail-safety does play a role. Unfortunately I cannot come up with a supplier for these cranks at the present time. In my engine it has taken countless 8k+ runs until today. During engine updates it was just put back in without visible and measurable issues.
The other parts are 97mm pistons, Deutz cylinders, additional welded 1.5l oil sump, Competition Eliminator heads modified to WBX head stud pattern, CB titanium valves, Udo Becker lightweight lifters, Pauter cam. The clutch combo consists of a 228mm Sachs Racing pressure plate along with the high-duty disk from the same manufacturer.
It is in a beetle and comes with Porsche-Style cooling tin. For those who want to make it look a little more Cal Look-compliant, the Type 1 cooling tin can be installed as well, however it will need considerable trimming I believe (I actually saw this setup just once). I used to drive it on the street regularly until some years ago. At that time it was equipped with Limbach aircraft heads (44x37.5), fully streetable and German Autobahn approved (average crusing speeds used to be 100mph+). Well, by the time the spool and the Com Elis came for bumping up strip performance, hence streetabiliy degraded and I took it to official roads every now and then.
Hope this answers your questions...this is what it looks like today

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[vwcab]

Hi gator push,is it the "old" alligator-push that you race,built by Peter Voss?

[Udo]

Hi
For Street use i relocate the head stud holes . I take these new heads that have a stronger and very fine casting . Normaly i sell them for street use and bigger valves.
The only problem that we have is that the fine Limbach and Öttinger cranks are no longer avaliable

[Udo]

Peter's engine has 245 hp now and the engine does not need as much freshend up as Type1 case engines .Best et so far is 11,2

[gator_push]

Peter's engine has 245 hp now and the engine does not need as much freshend up as Type1 case engines .Best et so far is 11,2

This hp figure is with the belt on (with the Porsche fan shown on the photo and a Porsche alternator). The torque figure is 214 lb.ft. (290Nm). Best ET is actually 11.15.

Hi gator push,is it the "old" alligator-push that you race,built by Peter Voss?

Yes.

[Rasser]

Peter's engine has 245 hp now and the engine does not need as much freshend up as Type1 case engines .Best et so far is 11,2

This hp figure is with the belt on (with the Porsche fan shown on the photo and a Porsche alternator). The torque figure is 214 lb.ft. (290Nm). Best ET is actually 11.15.

Hi gator push,is it the "old" alligator-push that you race,built by Peter Voss?

Yes.

This is very impressive hp numbers, both hp/nm !!!

What pauter cam are you using, and at what rpm is the power delivered?

One of my friends had his engine dynoed at 218hp, and when he took the belt of it made 233hp (same porsche cooling as yours). That means you have around 260hp!
Impressive numbers for sure!!

[karl h]

this is my 82x101.6 waterboxer engine with typ1 cooling (with 52 IDAs)
the shroud is a modified doghouse, doghouse cut off (to get all of the internal fins) and reshaped to 30hp shape. the wbx does not have the provision for an oilcooler in the stock location. thats why you can bore the case for 4" barrels without any welding.

[gator_push]

This is very impressive hp numbers, both hp/nm !!!

What pauter cam are you using, and at what rpm is the power delivered?

One of my friends had his engine dynoed at 218hp, and when he took the belt of it made 233hp (same porsche cooling as yours). That means you have around 260hp!
Impressive numbers for sure!!

I do not know the exact specs of the cam, please contact Udo for the details.

[gator_push]

this is my 82x101.6 waterboxer engine with typ1 cooling (with 52 IDAs)
the shroud is a modified doghouse, doghouse cut off (to get all of the internal fins) and reshaped to 30hp shape. the wbx does not have the provision for an oilcooler in the stock location. thats why you can bore the case for 4" barrels without any welding.

Karl, this sounds quite promising. What is the detailed setup of your engine?

[karl h]

i built the longblock for a customer, but ran the engine in my car before selling it.
82mm crank, 5.6 h.beams, 101.6 wisecos in AA barrels, fk 45 cam with 1.4 scat rockers, limbach heads (44x38, made by weiser, bought used from peter gierlich) with matchported berg short manifods, 1 3/4" merged header (think i got it from scat) and an apple racing 2.5" muffler. porsche oil squirters are used for cooling the pistons, as this is a street engine, it will be used with 48 IDFs and porsche cooling.

[Udo]

Hey Peter , looks like your old heads found a good home ..

gator push = Peter Gierlich

Udo

[rick m]

Udo,

I met you once years back either at BERGS or the return of the Bug-In at Fontana.  You were sharing info with us on Tool Steel lifters you make.  I have a question about who makes the head castings you showed in one of the posts above. You can tell by the look of the casting it is a quality piece.  Are these available in the US anywhere?

I am seriously thinking about building a WBX case engine for a bus project I have. I want the advantage of using the stock 2.1 crank and going to a larger bore.  I will be adding auxillary coolers and fans, plus want to run the 911 fan set up on it. Do you know if any guys in Europe that have gone this route that I might get input from about the temps it would run in a 71 style bus body.  I know it all is based upon compression, cam timing, etc. but I plan to hold the compression slightly lower than what the Vanagon motors had and very mild cam design.

I would appreciate any input you have on the heads and WBX motor combo's in busses you know of.

Rick Mortensen

[Udo]

Hi rick

these are the new Bugpack heads . But you must pug and weld the head stud holes and relocate them. They have enough material to cut for Type 4 cylinders . Or you can also use the german Sauer heads which are made for WBX case and 98 bore. This is the biggest i would do better are 96 mm.
We have one here in germany that runs a wbx in a bus and works good, but a bigger crank is better in any way. And you need a porsche cooling fan . 82x96 is a very good combination

Udo

[rick m]

Udo,

Thanks so much for the input. I really like the idea of the WBX block for the type 4 mains, bigger clutch and other features that are nothing but a plus for the bus and it's weight.  What are guys doing for the oil cooling? We hit 110 degree temps here in Arizona. It is akin to being in north Africa for heat.  Do you have any cam recommendations for that 82x96 combo?

Rick M

[Udo]

This is often dicussed regarding the oil cooling. We do not have any problems with the front oil cooler, but some americans say in stop and go traffic the oil gets too hot.
I would use a Pauter 03 or R6 for this engine. May be an Engle W125 will make the same power. Depends on what lifters you use. Type4 or Type 1

Udo