Fitting a late box into a early car - advice needed?

[Deanodynosaurs]

Sorry i know I've asked a loads of tech questions! But I got another one! 

I'm fitting a later buit gearbox into a early car (58 bug), and I know the mounts on the chasis are diffrent, and that I either need to weld on a later bracket, or use a adaptor plate, which are only available as a solid mount option.

However I've been measuring it up, and it seems that the nose come mount on both early and late boxes are the same, and also that the spacing of the bolt on the chasis bracket fits the rhino mount im going to use. The only diffrence I can see between the mountring points on the two box's is that the later box's have the mounting holes 40mm lower.

Thus could I just cut the face of the mounting bracket on the chasis off, and weld a thick plate with bolts (or bolt holes) on it which are 40mm lowers, so that the shift rod is in the centre of the tunnel hole? I think this picture explains it better.




Cheers, again in advance for all the advice!

Dude 

[louisb]

Swap to a T2 nose cone on your tranny. This should allow you to use the stock mount.

--louis

[Deanodynosaurs]

Hi louisb,

I'd rather change the chasis mount than nosecone, as I'm toying with the idea of a 5 speed gearbox which bears motorsport do, and this requires replaces the nosecone and bit behind it with a custom made gear housing to add the 5th gear.

Also dont mind doing the welding if the principle is sound as happy enough with my welding/ fabrication skills to do it.

Cheers for the info anyway.

Dude

[Zach Gomulka]

Swap to a T2 nose cone on your tranny. This should allow you to use the stock mount.

--louis

That works, but actually mounts the nosecone up too high, and makes the motor angle/hang down lower than it should. If you want rubber mounts, I advise modifying the bracket on the pan to accept the later type 1 nosecone and rubber mount.

[louisb]

That sounds like you may need a custom mount anyway. Search on here for mounting a 5 speed and check out some of the custom mounts people have done. But there should not be an issue with lowering the mount as long as it all lines up. Would hate to get it together and find out you can only shift into 3rd and reverse.  

--louis

[Ian M]

Swap to a T2 nose cone on your tranny. This should allow you to use the stock mount.

--louis

That works, but actually mounts the nosecone up too high, and makes the motor angle/hang down lower than it should. If you want rubber mounts, I advise modifying the bracket on the pan to accept the later type 1 nosecone and rubber mount.

I've found the opposite to be so. I considered using a '61 later nosecone with solid mid and rear mounts (With the solid mid and rear,I'm not using a nose mount at all) in my '57,until I realized I needed the Type II style nosecone and hockey stick to position the trans correctly. Somebody had converted the car in the '60s or early '70s to tunnel case by using a later nosecone and welding in a later nose mount,so I test fitted the engine that way to confirm my hunch. The '61 and later nosecone in a earlier car put the transmission too low in the front,and would have made header clearance to the rear apron a no-go.

The transmission in a split case car sits higher in relation to the frame horns than a tunnel case car. For example,look at bergs mid mounts. The plate is "taller" on the version designed for the split case era cars.

The type 2 style nose cone/hockeystick/mount like WW sells for the conversion put the trans/engine in the proper location and made it a bolt in on several cars I've seen/converted. The best way to do it in my opinion.

I have two '58s at home,one has a factory welded in mount-like the one pictured above (which looks sorta similar to the welded in mount in later  in tunnel case cars) and the other has a cast in mount like the earlier cars. Apparently that must have been a mid year upgrade of some sort.  The Type II style nosecone/mount worked great in the car with the later style (I'm assuming) mount as well.

I'm guessing a 5-speed changes everything.

[fish]

Forget about a front mount, get it on solid with a Berg mid and rear mount with Kafer or traction bar.

[bodgit]

I know for fitting my Berg 5 speed 'box there's no nosecone mount, I had a mid mount welded in between the frame horns and the usual arrangement at the rear.

Also the boot floor needed clearancing because of the extra magic on the front of the gearbox, but not sure if that's just a problem with Splits and Ovals.

See my build up page for some photos.

Matt

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Sorry i know I've asked a loads of tech questions! But I got another one! 

I'm fitting a later buit gearbox into a early car (58 bug), and I know the mounts on the chasis are diffrent, and that I either need to weld on a later bracket, or use a adaptor plate, which are only available as a solid mount option.

However I've been measuring it up, and it seems that the nose come mount on both early and late boxes are the same, and also that the spacing of the bolt on the chasis bracket fits the rhino mount im going to use. The only diffrence I can see between the mountring points on the two box's is that the later box's have the mounting holes 40mm lower.

Thus could I just cut the face of the mounting bracket on the chasis off, and weld a thick plate with bolts (or bolt holes) on it which are 40mm lowers, so that the shift rod is in the centre of the tunnel hole? I think this picture explains it better.




Cheers, again in advance for all the advice!

Dude 

Here is What I Did on My 58 I cut off the Original Mount and Welded in The Later Style Works Great

[Deanodynosaurs]

Hey Shubee,

In a ideal world that what i'd love to do, just get a later mount and weld it in. However, i dont know anywhere i can get one from, or anyone who's scrapping a car.
Perhaps i'll have another trawl through the forums for people breaking cars.

Bodgit - The Bear's 5 speed conversion is a whole new conversion, and has specifically been designed to need minimall bodywork adjustment in any car. Speaking with Paul from Bears, the only adjustments that might have to be made is the removal of seat belt anchor points in later cars, and some clearnance on the inside of the frame forks where there spot welded together. It does allow the use of a rear mount, and the pysical dimensions are the same as rhino or later box as well. Oh and it also uses a really cool cable shift set up! Check out here for more info (http://www.bearsmotorsport.co.uk/)

Thanks everyone elso for all the info on this topic. Once i've done it i will post up a picture of how.

Dude 

[speedwell]

i do that work last year on the 61 put my 74 gearbox with a 64 nosecone check here

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Hey Shubee,

In a ideal world that what i'd love to do, just get a later mount and weld it in. However, i dont know anywhere i can get one from, or anyone who's scrapping a car.
Perhaps i'll have another trawl through the forums for people breaking cars.

Bodgit - The Bear's 5 speed conversion is a whole new conversion, and has specifically been designed to need minimall bodywork adjustment in any car. Speaking with Paul from Bears, the only adjustments that might have to be made is the removal of seat belt anchor points in later cars, and some clearnance on the inside of the frame forks where there spot welded together. It does allow the use of a rear mount, and the pysical dimensions are the same as rhino or later box as well. Oh and it also uses a really cool cable shift set up! Check out here for more info (http://www.bearsmotorsport.co.uk/)

Thanks everyone elso for all the info on this topic. Once i've done it i will post up a picture of how.

Dude 

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c

[Deanodynosaurs]

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c

Cheers Shubee,

This would be the ideal solution! 

However, the shipping is actually MORE than the item!
$41.65 to the UK for this $32 item!

As usuall NO ONE in the UK stocks it! 

Dude 

[benssp]

We list em #113-701-173

but out of stock,  waiting for a delivery from VW mehico 

[Deanodynosaurs]

We list em #113-701-173

but out of stock,  waiting for a delivery from VW mehico 

Dude, your a star! 

In my defence i did look, but couldnt see em listed.  Probably cause there out of stock!! 
EDIT: Just found em in the catalogue! 

Any idea when you'll have em in mate?

Dude 

[benssp]

Dude, your a star! 

In my defence i did look, but couldnt see em listed.  Probably cause there out of stock!! 

Any idea when you'll have em in mate?

Dude 

I'll let you know tomorrow, waiting for a response from VW, or if you wait 6-12 months, i'm removing my one from my chassis, or ask andy marriot, i know he removed his one

[Deanodynosaurs]

I'll let you know tomorrow, waiting for a response from VW, or if you wait 6-12 months, i'm removing my one from my chassis, or ask andy marriot, i know he removed his one

I know I been going slow on this project, but i would like to get the gearbox in before the next 6 mths if possiable! 

I'll give you a call tommorow dude. 

Cheers mate,

Dude

[Deanodynosaurs]

UPDATE

Right, this has really been dragging on, but I have been making some progress!  However, I’ve hit a snag!, therefore, if you can make your way through my lengthy explanation, I would really appreciate any advice!! 

I have managed to get a later nose cone mount, and when trial fitted to the gearbox and offered up to the back part of the frameforks, it actually fits quite well, with the hockey stick being in the centre of the hole in the back of the tunnel.    See below, but without the mount! (I know that not very helpful but it gives you an idea of where it sits!)



At the other end, where the cradle bolts to the frameforks, all also seems ok as well, as the input shaft is at the same height as the original early box. (measured from the floor)

However, even though the input shaft is at the right height, and the hockey stick goes into the tunnel at the right place (with the later weld on nose cone mount fitting snugly), if the angles which the bell housing sit is compared to the original, it is apparent that the later box actually is angled back (about 3-4 degrees).  See picture (Note: This actually makes it look more exaggerated than it is!  )



This difference in the angles was worked out by fitting the original gearbox using all standard mounts and levelling the chasis so that the bell housing was exactly vertical. See below.



Thus the question I finally want to ask is that, has anyone else found that this happens when fitting latter box in an early car by changing the nose cone mounting bracket? Also am I going to have a problem with the engine being too high up in relation to the valence? Will there be a problem with the engine side trays? 

Input on this would be really appreciated as I don’t want to have to refit the body just to see where the engine sit in the engine bay!

Cheers in advance.

Dude 

[Ian M]

^This is the problem I was talking about in my 1st post. You certainly will have header clearance and tin fitment issues. Found this out the hard way!

The type II style nosecone has "1 or so lower hockeystick location,allowing the front of the trans to come up,which puts the tunnelcase trans back in the proper position.

[Deanodynosaurs]

^This is the problem I was talking about in my 1st post. You certainly will have header clearance and tin fitment issues. Found this out the hard way!

The type II style nosecone has "1 or so lower hockeystick location,allowing the front of the trans to come up,which puts the tunnelcase trans back in the proper position.

Hi Ian M,

Sorry i didn't quite get this in the first post, but now i've struck the problem i do, as it become blatantly obvious! 

So in the car i now have a later box and later style mount.  Am i right in saying if i now change the nose cone to a type 2 one (will one off a split be ok?) it will correctly align the bell housing? (i.e brining the nose cone up)

Does this fix work with the later lower down nose cone, or do i need to re-install the higher early nose cone mount?  I really hope it will work with the later mount, as this is now FULLY welded in!

Cheers, for the help with this?

Dude 

[Shubee2 (DSK)]

Hi Deano You should not have any Problem  with the Fit you have to Remember you have brand new rear Mounts installed and you will have a 250 lb Engine hanging off the Back which will compress the Rubber Mounts. also when you messured this did you also messure to make sure the pan was even front to back with a Level on the center Tunnel?

[Deanodynosaurs]

Hi Deano You should not have any Problem  with the Fit you have to Remember you have brand new rear Mounts installed and you will have a 250 lb Engine hanging off the Back which will compress the Rubber Mounts. also when you messured this did you also messure to make sure the pan was even front to back with a Level on the center Tunnel?

Hi Shubee2,

I spent absolutely ages measuring the angle of the gearbox. Initially I installed the original early gearbox, mounts and cradle, and a spirit level was bolted vertically across the face of the bell housing. The pan was the set so that the bell housing was EXACTLY VERTICAL as indicated by the spirit level. I then installed the later mount and later gearbox, and measured the angle on the face of the bell housing again, and found that it was laid back by 3 degrees (using a digital angle measuring tool). Thus independent of what angle the original gearbox should have been, I know the later on is laid back 3 degrees. 

Although as you stated the engine is heavy, and should crush down the cradle mounts, I’d like it to be at the right angle to begin with. Also I’m running urethane rhino mounts, so not sure they will compress as much.

I think what I will end up doing is actually putting the body back on the pan, and trail fitting a engine to see how it sits. A lot of work, but at least I will know exactly where it sits.

I might also see how it sits with a type two nose cone fitted, but I’m not sure whether I need the original higher up nose cone mount fitted for that, which has now been ground of and discarded?! Why is nothing EVER straight forward! 

Dude 

[Ian M]

I had already welded in a mid mount in my car before I figured out mine was wrong. 

Somebody had put a tunnel case in my car and welded in a later pan mount in my car in the late '60s,early '70s,and it must have "worked" with the stock 40hp that was in it.  After thinking about it a while,I had the hunch it would postion the trans at the wrong angle,so I mocked it up to check.  I checked the  nose cone/tranny in my car with the engine in it (with HD rubber mounts) the angle was WAY off at the rear of the engine. The rear tin was above the rubber seal channel close to an inch,the primary tubes on the header fouled the inner apron. You could visually see the fanshoud was angled to the firewall. Mounts won't settle that far,unless they are made of marshmallows. 

The type II nosecone, and hockeystick like WW sells (I don't remember which year busses they were on) will bring the front of the trans up and will correctly align the bellhousing.  It won't work with the later mount you welded in  though,it lines up with the origional split case trans mount.    The cone,hockeystick and mount bolts right in a stock splitcase pan. I'm using a solid mid and rear mount,without a nose mount though.