Engine and parts help... mild road engine project

[GreenTom]

I'm a little bit afraid of that 2mm fly cut of yours heads.
when using not machined case on cylinder connect sides and 69mm crank and OEM VW conrods and 90,5 non stroaker pistons with oem cyl. Heads you'll get about 9:1 CR it's why more often the semi hemi fly cut is being done to lower the compression.
I've got 1776 made of junk with OEM heads that have been semi hemi fly cut to get about 54cc in the chamber. Than after a season I fly cut the heads down by 1mm which gave me aporx 9'ish : 1 CR.
I would recon that You measure the cc's in yours heads and put together the case with barrels and pistons to measure the deck and than you should make a move on the heads, not before
Measure, measure, measure...

[Nico86]

I will measure everything when I get all the parts  It's the inside of the chambers that have been machined, not the "face" of the heads.

[Nico86]

1.5qt sump, any will do; scat, empi, GB, or an oldschool racetrim, treuhaft etc.

You mean 1,5 US qt sump (0,69 liter) or 1,5 liters sump ? 

[Nico86]

Version #3 

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm forged 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted/balanced

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods

Heads
Stock 040 german VW heads
12mm spark plugs inserts
2mm machined chambers for a 8,5:1 compression ratio
35,5x32mm valves

Camshaft
Engle W110
Straight-cut timing gears

Lifters
Stock German

Pushrods
Stock length, chromoly

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit
Swivel feet adjusters

Valves
35.5x32mm stainless steel valves
Single heavy duty springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW german magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
German bearings everywhere
Stock german hardware

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons

Carbs
40IDF or 40 Dellortos

Exhaust
1 1/2 header, still have to think about heating system or not

Fuel
Stock fuel pump
Stock fuel lines
King filter/regulator ?


Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
8mm silicon plug wires
What type of spark plugs ?

Oil and cooling
Berg full flow
Berg 26 mm oil pump
Maybe Berg oil pump cover with relief valve if needed
Breather box, connected to valve covers
1,5 additionnal oil sump
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 oil cooler
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

Clutch and Flywheel
Balanced with the crank
200mm flywheel, lightweighted
200mm pressure plate, 200mm clutch disc
Stock clutch hardware ?

Misc. parts
Stock generator, with stock pulley ?
Stock starter

[Jim Ratto]

on your current version, use NGK B6HS plugs, no need for regulator with stock pump, stock 8mm clutch bolts will work, CB performance sells OEM VW generator pulley (don't use aftermarket), you can use SR17 'autostick' starter in place of stock starter if need be.
I don't care for the 110 cam, never have, even in mild applications, unless carburetion is limited to something like ICT Webers or baby Dellortos. Even with Kadrons a little more aggressive camshaft works great. With your 40mm Weber or Dellorto, my choice would be Engle W120 or Web Cam 110. It will still run very smoothly off idle, pull crisply down low, but will widen your powerband up on top and make your motor a heck of a lot more fun to drive. I've done a few 1679/1776 with 110 Engle and they all felt so limp and asthmatic. They ran smoothly but weren't a big improvement over the stock cam. With the 120 or the Web 110 you'll need to set your heads up with a light dual spring. Your motor will have so much more soul to it with a little more cam.
have fun, otherwise sounds like a great street screamer.
Jim

[Nico86]

Thanks Jim  I will try to use as much german or OEM parts where I'll use stock parts.

The Engle 120 seems fine too, with a little more duration than the Engle 110 and almost the same lift, it could expands the range of use of the engine.

Can I use the 120 with the following parts ?
Stock rockers 1,1:1 ratio (with Berg bolt-up kit)
Stock German lifters
Chromoly pushrods
Berg single or dual springs with chromoly retainers

[Felix/DFL]

Thanks Jim  I will try to use as much german or OEM parts where I'll use stock parts.

The Engle 120 seems fine too, with a little more duration than the Engle 110 and almost the same lift, it could expands the range of use of the engine.

Can I use the 120 with the following parts ?
Stock rockers 1,1:1 ratio (with Berg bolt-up kit)
Stock German lifters
Chromoly pushrods
Berg single or dual springs with chromoly retainers

Hi,
I would even use light dual springs as suggested by Jim.

My 1776 even had a W120 later W125 and stock size valves. Worked nice.
I would try out the HD aluminium pushrods, not so noisy as the CroMo`s.

Things I would cahnge:
When you really want to go with stock lifters they need to be blued/hardened othersise they will fail and make noise.
Why not go with some other lifters? Scat/Empi will work for that combo and are much lighter.
Rise compression to about 9-9,5
No need for an regulator cover with an 26mm pump unless you want to drive in cold wintermonths. Than you need it.
Welded fan? What revs you are after?

[streetvw]

ran my 120 cam'd 1776 with

S/S valves,
engle dual springs,
stock rockers with berg elephant feet adjusters ,
molly push rods,
scat lifters

never had a problem but it was a bit rattly due to the pushrods so Felix/DFL's suggestion of using HD aluminium pushrods would quiet things down a little on that front

are you planning on running a C/W crank? if not then I ran my stock balanced motor to 5500rpm when I was feelling frisky and it did see 6500rpm at the track when I was trying to get my times down (I only did about 6 runs) max torque on my combination was at about 3000rpm and max power was at 5500rpm sorry but I can't just put my hands on the dyno sheet but I spent a day at JMR when I built it trying different stuff but couldn't get the power past 95hp but it was a very low compression set up 

[Nico86]

ran my 120 cam'd 1776 with

S/S valves,
engle dual springs,
stock rockers with berg elephant feet adjusters ,
molly push rods,
scat lifters

never had a problem but it was a bit rattly due to the pushrods so Felix/DFL's suggestion of using HD aluminium pushrods would quiet things down a little on that front

are you planning on running a C/W crank? if not then I ran my stock balanced motor to 5500rpm when I was feelling frisky and it did see 6500rpm at the track when I was trying to get my times down (I only did about 6 runs) max torque on my combination was at about 3000rpm and max power was at 5500rpm sorry but I can't just put my hands on the dyno sheet but I spent a day at JMR when I built it trying different stuff but couldn't get the power past 95hp but it was a very low compression set up 

  Thanks !
Yes I will have a C/W crank.

Thanks Jim  I will try to use as much german or OEM parts where I'll use stock parts.

The Engle 120 seems fine too, with a little more duration than the Engle 110 and almost the same lift, it could expands the range of use of the engine.

Can I use the 120 with the following parts ?
Stock rockers 1,1:1 ratio (with Berg bolt-up kit)
Stock German lifters
Chromoly pushrods
Berg single or dual springs with chromoly retainers

Hi,
I would even use light dual springs as suggested by Jim.

My 1776 even had a W120 later W125 and stock size valves. Worked nice.
I would try out the HD aluminium pushrods, not so noisy as the CroMo`s.

Things I would cahnge:
When you really want to go with stock lifters they need to be blued/hardened othersise they will fail and make noise.
Why not go with some other lifters? Scat/Empi will work for that combo and are much lighter.
Rise compression to about 9-9,5
No need for an regulator cover with an 26mm pump unless you want to drive in cold wintermonths. Than you need it.
Welded fan? What revs you are after?

  Thanks
I will indeed use sometimes the car in winter, even maybe the car would stay for the night outside and have to start early in the morning with temp near -10°C. I will put one, just for safety, that won't change anything for the oil system ?

About light dual springs, where to find some ? I only saw HD single springs or HD dual springs as the Berg ones, or Engle.

[Jim Ratto]

ran my 120 cam'd 1776 with

S/S valves,
engle dual springs,
stock rockers with berg elephant feet adjusters ,
molly push rods,
scat lifters

never had a problem but it was a bit rattly due to the pushrods so Felix/DFL's suggestion of using HD aluminium pushrods would quiet things down a little on that front

are you planning on running a C/W crank? if not then I ran my stock balanced motor to 5500rpm when I was feelling frisky and it did see 6500rpm at the track when I was trying to get my times down (I only did about 6 runs) max torque on my combination was at about 3000rpm and max power was at 5500rpm sorry but I can't just put my hands on the dyno sheet but I spent a day at JMR when I built it trying different stuff but couldn't get the power past 95hp but it was a very low compression set up 

  Thanks !
Yes I will have a C/W crank.

Thanks Jim  I will try to use as much german or OEM parts where I'll use stock parts.

The Engle 120 seems fine too, with a little more duration than the Engle 110 and almost the same lift, it could expands the range of use of the engine.

Can I use the 120 with the following parts ?
Stock rockers 1,1:1 ratio (with Berg bolt-up kit)
Stock German lifters
Chromoly pushrods
Berg single or dual springs with chromoly retainers

Hi,
I would even use light dual springs as suggested by Jim.

My 1776 even had a W120 later W125 and stock size valves. Worked nice.
I would try out the HD aluminium pushrods, not so noisy as the CroMo`s.

Things I would cahnge:
When you really want to go with stock lifters they need to be blued/hardened othersise they will fail and make noise.
Why not go with some other lifters? Scat/Empi will work for that combo and are much lighter.
Rise compression to about 9-9,5
No need for an regulator cover with an 26mm pump unless you want to drive in cold wintermonths. Than you need it.
Welded fan? What revs you are after?

  Thanks
I will indeed use sometimes the car in winter, even maybe the car would stay for the night outside and have to start early in the morning with temp near -10°C. I will put one, just for safety, that won't change anything for the oil system ?

About light dual springs, where to find some ? I only saw HD single springs or HD dual springs as the Berg ones, or Engle.

Bugpack 4046 duals will work

[Nico86]

Thanks Jim 

[qubek]

What's the point in buying c/w 69 crank? If I was to spend money on a c/w crank, I wouldn't buy a 69 mm one. Bigger ones cost the same, don't they?
In addition, there is a lot of people using stock German cranks that have no issues caused by lack of counterweighting.
Plus, I trust an original VW crank more then an aftermarket one. Waste of money IMHO. But I can be wrong.

[Nico86]

What's the point in buying c/w 69 crank? If I was to spend money on a c/w crank, I wouldn't buy a 69 mm one. Bigger ones cost the same, don't they?
In addition, there is a lot of people using stock German cranks that have no issues caused by lack of counterweighting.
Plus, I trust an original VW crank more then an aftermarket one. Waste of money IMHO. But I can be wrong.

Stroker crank cost the same, but if I go for a huge strocker engine it will imply more machining to the case, replacing the heads and big work on it (valves, combustion chambers, porting) bigger carbs, etc... and that's a lot of $$$

[qubek]

I agree. This is why I haven't said "huge stroker". I was thinking about something smaller*. And probably even this can lead to some additional work.
On the other hand, when I measured the deck height of my engine for the first time, it came up to be over 3 mm. I had to have the cylinders cut and it would probably be easier for me to assembly this engine with a small stroker crank. But this is probably just an exception and definitely not a rule.


*or - on the other hand - a stock crank

[Nico86]

For now I will keep it at 69x90,5  (maybe after, I'll build a strocker engine with all the good parts that come with).
I want use the german VW forged crank I have and ask how much it cost to have it counterweighted in a vw shop. I also know people that work on Alpine and Renault Gordini engine that may couterweight it for a cheap price.
And yes first thing to do is to buy the cylinders kit and measure the CR.

[Zach Gomulka]

My two cents for what it's worth...

1776
Counterweighted crank
Lightened flywheel
Stock valve ported heads
Heavy duty single springs with HD aluminium pushrods
Engle 100
8:1
Heater boxes with standard 1 3/8" header
Kadrons or even better, Dellorto 36DRLA's

[bugnut68]

My two cents for what it's worth...

1776
Counterweighted crank
Lightened flywheel
Stock valve ported heads
Heavy duty single springs with HD aluminium pushrods
Engle 100
8:1
Heater boxes with standard 1 3/8" header
Kadrons or even better, Dellorto 36DRLA's

That's close to what I had last, except with 1.25 rockers and stock flywheel (non-lightened).  Pushrods were steel set to loose zero.  Semi hemi chambers in the heads.  GREAT highway motor and tons of fun to drive around town, too...  I won't lie, though, my allegiances lie with my new 2017 build.  Can't wait to experience big valve, big cam and big carb goodness.

[Jim Ratto]

I have no idea ! 

I have some comments to make, after kind of following your post Nico. I know from many of the posts in this thread, you're after a "mild" road engine, and I think you may be thinking "mild"="driveable", which kind of leaves it up to the guy that's going to drive the car. Meaning how tolerant the guy is and his threshold for "driveable" and "not driveable". Have you already purchased your carburetion?
I will share some experience with you, some in my own car and some not, but where I was involved with motors.

my first self built motor was 87 x 69, CW'td 69 crank,12lb flywheel, 041 VW heads, 9.0:1, Engle VZ25 (.470 x 256(?)* @ .050"/286adv), dual 36DRLA w/ 30mm venturies, 009, standard "non merge" header with Turbo muffler under RH fender. While you may believe the VZ25 cam was too radical for this displacement and that I had a time bomb on my hands, it wasn't. Prior to dual 36mm carbs I had one center-mounted 36DRLA and it was pretty wild, as far as idle, power off cam, etc. It would idle no lower than 1400rpm, and it was picky until 4000. That was with 36 single 2bbl. Once I went to dual DRLA's the engine gained everything it didn't have before down low. It would now idle very smoothly @ 1000rpm. It would stand more ignition advance. It would pull solidly off idle, and run cleanly through to 6500. This was my only car at the time, I was 17-18 years old. It was driven to school/work and all around California. The key to making the cam work in this motor was the carburetion… 1 throat per cylinder.
When I was in college, I knew a few friends, one posts here @ stealth67VW, this was in mid 1990’s. His only ride was his ’67 Bug, he built a 90.5 x 69 with stock valved, ported VW heads (at first, later he went to big valves), Engle 125, I think either high 8’s compression or low 9:1, and 44mm Webers. I drove this car, and went for many rides in it and it was completely driveable! There were no dead spots in the power band, it just came off idle and screamed to 7000+. It got somewhere around 25mpg with him commuting in it. It was one of the nicest 1776’s I can remember, because not only was it very fast, but because it was reliable, and docile when it needed to be. Around same time, while working @ Buggy House, we had a young girl bring her Karmann Ghia, a white 1966 coupe, in for a motor. Based on talking to her about what she expected and wanted to use the car for, we built a 90.5 x 69 with 041 VW heads, Engle 120, 8.5:1 Weber 44’s and merged 1-5/8 header with turbo tuck muffler. This had to be and still is the nicest, smoothest 1776 I can remember. It was almost as fast as stealth’s motor, but quieter and even smoother to drive. The young girl wanted something that she could commute in back and forth to university in, some of it involved climbing long grade on freeways. She was really really happy once we gave the car back to her, and when she came in for services, she always thanked us for making her car run the way it did.
Lastly I will bring up my old friend SODA’s first, and sweetest hot rod motor he built. It was a pretty bad ass, but small cc street motor he stuck in his ’65 stock Bug. It was 88 x69 (1679cc), 8.4:1, Web Cam 110 (similar to Engle 120), Heads Up Performance 35 x 32mm ported and semi-hemi cut VW heads, Scat 1.25 rockers, 6lb alum flywheel, Weber 40IDF’s on CB tall manifolds and 32mm venturies, and 1-5/8” merged with a Tiger magnaflow. We were worried about this one, we were certain it was going to be total wet sponge under 4000, maybe 4500. But nope, it ran VERY hard right off idle, and yes it was peaky, but in no way was it undriveable. You could easily cruise around under 3000rpm in 4th and stomp it and it would get right with the program and starting pulling, of course, it would have preferred you downshift a gear, because if you did once 4000 came it changed its sound from the deep bassy Weber growl, to a high pitched, feral shriek and you better have your hand on the shifter because in a blink it would flash 7500rpm. This was SODA’s only car at the time (he was borrowing my Vanagon while building the motor and riding his brother’s Norton).
What I’m trying to say is if you’re going to build a hot rod, then build a hot rod and don’t short change yourself because you’re worried about “driveability” due to aggressive cam or larger carburetors. You will always want more, trust me, so why not start as far ahead as you can. I like the stock stroke, they run sweetly. A stroker is just as sweet, just more hard edged and urget. No waiting!
You’ll find more duration helps with cooling too…..

[Ron Greiner]

a stock stroke motor with the W-125 Engle cam is not going to run smooth at a low rpm, actually it won't come on power till 3,800 rpm !
it will be a dog untill then, so do not use the 125 on a stock stroke motor

[Nico86]

Thanks for all the advices, Zack, bugnut, Ron and Jim 

Yes I want the engine to be driveable, and also relieable, that I can drive when and where I want. For example last month I did a 800km (500 miles) trip in Italy in one day with the stock 1300 F engine. Multiple kind of roads : country-side, highway, mountain passes and seaside roads. I also want it to be able to run a regularity historical rally : driving on little mountain roads 10 hours a day during 2 or 3 days. Sometimes in hot summer, some times in cold winter. I know, I want the perfect and impossible to built engine ! 
I'm not after a high-perf engine, I have the opportunity to drag race only one or two times a year, as you say I'm sure one day I will build a strocker engine or try get the most out of a "mouse" engine, but I keep it in my mind for another project I have : a Karmann Ghia (one day, it' will be mine )

The parts I already have are listed here : http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,5591.msg204752.html#msg204752 you can add to this a pair of Weber 40 IDF. I have that so I'll use it.

Lastly I will bring up my old friend SODA’s first, and sweetest hot rod motor he built. It was a pretty bad ass, but small cc street motor he stuck in his ’65 stock Bug. It was 88 x69 (1679cc), 8.4:1, Web Cam 110 (similar to Engle 120), Heads Up Performance 35 x 32mm ported and semi-hemi cut VW heads, Scat 1.25 rockers, 6lb alum flywheel, Weber 40IDF’s on CB tall manifolds and 32mm venturies, and 1-5/8” merged with a Tiger magnaflow.

Diederick here give me the link to this thread about SODA's engine http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,747.0.html that's close to what I'm going to.

Would you use 1,25 rockers or keep 1,1 with the Engle120/Web110 ? I saw on Engle catolog that both can work.
Can I increase the CR up to 9 or keep 8,5 ?

[Zach Gomulka]

That's why I suggested the combo that I did. BIG improvement over stock, easy to build, simple & inexpensive, good mileage, and much more fun to drive Expect power from idle to just over 5500rpm. Your 40's will work just fine, I'd use 32mm venturies.

You can use 1.25's with the Engle (100, 110, 120, etc.) cam, or the Web 110. But if you're planning on buying new 1.25 rockers, you might as well buy 1.4 rockers since they are the same price and then use a cam that is designed for 1.4's. Your lifter bores will thank you, and you'll end up with more valve lift... but then you'll also need dual springs. As you know, things can snowball out of control quickly!

[Nico86]

As you know, things can snowball out of control quickly!

Yep ! 

[Nico86]

By the way, what can I use to protect the case while it's waiting for some work, that would be for about 2 or 3 month ? I sprayed WD40 on the crank and rods, but don't know what to use on aluminium heads and mag case.

[CHR!S/DVK]

By the way, what can I use to protect the case while it's waiting for some work, that would be for about 2 or 3 month ? I sprayed WD40 on the crank and rods, but don't know what to use on aluminium heads and mag case.

moistering with wd40 would work but what i think is most important is to tightly wrap the parts with cellophane (transparant kitchen wrap).
in this way you prevent contact with the outside air and water.

[Zach Gomulka]

If you plan on painting the case just go ahead and do it. If you drench it in WD-40 now, forget about painting it later. It wont stick!

[Nico86]

Thanks guys, I will paint the case later, so I will just wrap it.

[Jim Ratto]

I built a 1776 for my ex that was similar goal. Weber 40IDF, stock valved but ported VW heads 8.4:1 and Web Cam 218 with stock 1600 rockers on solid shafts, 911 swivel adj, dual Bugapck 4046 springs.
Ran well, but poor fuel mileage. Needed more CR.

[Nico86]

Jim, did you get the message I sent you ? 

[Nico86]

Version #4   

Crankshaft
Stock 69mm forged 'F' type crank
8 dowels flywheel
counterweighted/balanced

Rods
Stock VW 311B rods

Heads
Stock 040 german VW heads
12mm spark plugs inserts
8,5:1 compression ratio
35,5x32mm valves

Camshaft
Engle W120/Web Cam 110
Straight-cut timing gears

Lifters
Scat

Pushrods
Stock length, chromoly or aluminium

Rockers
Stock rockers, stock ratio 1,1:1
Bolt-up kit
Swivel feet adjusters

Valves
35.5x32mm stainless steel valves
Bugpack 4046 dual springs and heavy duty retainers

Case
VW german magnesium case, dual oil relief, line boring, spot faced
German bearings everywhere
Stock german hardware

Pistons and cylinders
90,5mm Mahle kit with forged pistons

Carbs
Webers 40IDF

Exhaust
Heating system will stay, with Berg, CSP or custom made heating boxes.
1 1/2" header is ok or should I go bigger ? (1 5/8" ?)

Fuel
Stock fuel pump
Stock fuel lines
(King fuel filter-regulator maybe later if needed)

Ignition
Bosch 009 + blue coil
8mm silicon plug wires
NGK B6HS spark plugs

Oil and cooling
Berg full flow
Berg 26 mm oil pump
(Berg oil pump cover with relief valve maybe later if needed)
Breather box, connected to valve covers
1,5 additionnal oil sump
Dog-house fan housing with type 1 oil cooler
Welded fan
Berg stock size damper/equalizer pulley
All the engine tin, of course.

Clutch and Flywheel
Balanced with the crank
200mm flywheel, lightweighted
200mm pressure plate, 200mm clutch disc
Stock clutch hardware

Misc. parts
Stock generator with stock pulley
Stock starter/SR17 'autostick' starter

[Donny B.]

loose the Scat lifters.  I have had two cams go flat both with Scat lifters and the were pitted badly.  I have had no luck with them at all.  I am now running Udo Becker tool steel lifters.  I do have an old set of Weisman (SP) lifters that I may use on a future project, but never again will I use Scat lifters.  Sorry...