How do you run easy 11's in a naturally aspirated street car ???

[Shane Noone]

Ok guys, this is one of those questions that so many people will have so many ideas or answers too that will have us all arguing no doubt.

So basically, take your average street driven car that can be driven for let's say at least 50 mile's to a race track, raced and driven home again. It cannot use any exotic fuels such as E85 or Race Blend. It has to use unleaded readily available to the pumps and in the UK that means up to 99 RON. This car would be street legal so have functioning lights and wipers and brakes on all corners. It doesn't run a spool or pro-rings in the transmission but can have any ratios and an LSD or ATB. You cannot use any performance adders like supercharged / turbocharged / Nitrous.

At the racetrack you can remove the fanbelt,choose to replace the muffler with a stinger and choose to run DOT's or slicks. But you must mention this is your feedback. If you don't we'll assume you are running with a fanbelt a muffler and street legal radials.

I've picked 11 seconds as that is still my personal goal yet to crack. Most of us these days know what it takes to run easy 13's and even 12's but to easily get much quicker is a heck of a lot tougher. But the same question could easily be for 10's / 9's.

Considering the multitude of engine configurations and components out there,can we simplify to some basic must have's ?

Ok, discuss and let's see if there is some commonly held beliefs around the global VW racing community 

Cheers

Shane.

[Udo]

Built a good 230 hp 2,3 type1 engine and a gearbox that has close gears and is strong enough for dot's or slick tires

Udo

[dannyboy]

more seat time   

[neil68]

Built a good 230 hp 2,3 type1 engine and a gearbox that has close gears and is strong enough for dot's or slick tires

Udo

What cam and compression ratio would you recommend?  In my stock weight '68 Beetle, I'm currently running a 2332 cc, close gears, with JPM heads flycut for 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, etc and have gotten into the high 12's with both a Web 86C (12.8 ET) and a Raptor cam (12.9 ET), but that seems a long ways from 11's.

[leec]

Why is it slower with the Raptor cam?

Shane, I really believe you will run that 11. Just realised I completely forgot to call you a few weeks back, sorry.

Lee

[TexasTom]

Sounds like a very cool, yet stout goal.
My '69 with a 2276 has run 12.58, though I think it has more in it ... or should I say less?

As for the 11s, I'd say it would take 235-240 hp to get an all steel, street legal, (non-butchered) sedan Well into the 11s, like 11.80s.
If you want to do it a bit more easily I have only 3 words ...

Four Inch Bore!

 
TxT

[Chuck Fryer]

I  went 11.92 last weekend.

2332 with a FK87 and wedgeports built at 10.5:1, runs pump gas, or sometimes a pump/race mix. I can drive it all around town and have driven it on several 20 mile drives, can't say I've gone 50. It has a 4.12 r/p stock first and second with 1.48 3rd and 1.14 4th. Fourth gear makes long drives tough. the car with me in it weighs 1700 lbs.

[stealth67vw]

Propylene Oxide. 

[Fritter]

Cool pic Chuck

[leec]

I  went 11.92 last weekend.

2332 with a FK87 and wedgeports built at 10.5:1, runs pump gas, or sometimes a pump/race mix. I can drive it all around town and have driven it on several 20 mile drives, can't say I've gone 50. It has a 4.12 r/p stock first and second with 1.48 3rd and 1.14 4th. Fourth gear makes long drives tough. the car with me in it weighs 1700 lbs.

Hi Chuck,

It was me who bought the header from you recently. What a great car/pic.

I've ran 11.94 in my street oval but it's pretty basic inside with no interior but is fully road legal and drove 25 miles last saturday without it getting hot etc. Mine is 2276, wedgeports, FK87 and 10.3:1 with the same gear ratios iirc so that is clearly a great combo.
The key for me is car set up, I regularly see low 1.5 sixty foots which although are not super quick it all helps get closer to the 11's.

Really must weigh my car, will head to a weigh bridge next week, people think my car is super light but it's all steel and runs full cooling etc

Lee

[Martin Greaves]

Hey Lee you may have done 25 miles in your car. But the car did more miles then that. 

[leec]

Hey Lee you may have done 25 miles in your car. But the car did more miles then that. 

Martin, there were two reasons I knew you hadn't driven it:

1. Your not tall enough for the current seat position
2. It was still in one piece/not broken after you said you drove it

Lee

[Chuck Fryer]

Lee-

You have a very similar car! To be fair, I did tow bar my car to the track. It's a quite a drive for me, and I am lazy. The car has no back seat, just a delete panel and the fronts are lowback aluminium racing seats covered in fabric.

Yes Lee, that header and stinger do have slight flat spots from being used as a wheelie bar in the past

[Udo]

Built a good 230 hp 2,3 type1 engine and a gearbox that has close gears and is strong enough for dot's or slick tires

Udo

What cam and compression ratio would you recommend?  In my stock weight '68 Beetle, I'm currently running a 2332 cc, close gears, with JPM heads flycut for 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, etc and have gotten into the high 12's with both a Web 86C (12.8 ET) and a Raptor cam (12.9 ET), but that seems a long ways from 11's.

You need good heads and i would recommed a CB 2296 . FK91 cam . We did a best of 11.5 with our black car - sorry Tom but only 230 german hp . Neil i think your biggest problem is the 60 feet time

Udo

[TexasTom]

Built a good 230 hp 2,3 type1 engine and a gearbox that has close gears and is strong enough for dot's or slick tires

Udo

What cam and compression ratio would you recommend?  In my stock weight '68 Beetle, I'm currently running a 2332 cc, close gears, with JPM heads flycut for 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, etc and have gotten into the high 12's with both a Web 86C (12.8 ET) and a Raptor cam (12.9 ET), but that seems a long ways from 11's.

You need good heads and i would recommed a CB 2296 . FK91 cam . We did a best of 11.5 with our black car - sorry Tom but only 230 german hp . Neil i think your biggest problem is the 60 feet time

Udo

Awesome accomplishments guys!
My problem is 1950 lbs. for my '69! What weight are You running, Udo?
Take out my squishy-comfortable interior? Nah ... I'll get there come hell or high water ...  
TxT

[Udo]

We had 1860 incl driver

[Chuck Fryer]

The 2296 is a great cam, I have run my best times with that cam. I know I said I have a fk87, but it is actually a cb 2289. that is their version of a fk 87

[robkong]

 I have gone 11.60 at 117mph in a 2200lb ghia with me in it. 2442  with super squishy piston,comp e heads,berg 5 speed trans.I have about 8000 street mile on the motor.
I plan  on going on the 2013 Hot Rod Power Tour with a couple other vw.This will be around a 1600 mile drive to prove your car is a true street car.
You will be able to run you car at 5 different race track,to fine your overall time.

[Fasterbrit]

Hey Robkong. The tour you mention sounds really interesting. Can you give any more details please? Would like to know more about it if possible. Cheers, Matt

[robkong]

Hot Rod magzine has put on this event for the past 10 year. The 2012 power tour had over 2000 car.
Hot Rodder from all over the world came to this event.Some rented vetts and camaors to make the drive.
Just Google  power tour or Hot Rod power Tour.
Richie webb was the one who got me thinking about going.
I do not think a vw has ever competed in this event. As of now we have 4 vw going,3 turbo.

[Shane Noone]

Hey all,

Thanks for sharing and very impressive you guys !

Lee, no problem dude we will catch up soon.

I also think careful, maybe trial and error setup to the way the car launches and also choosing the right clutch combo to ensure a 60ft in the 1.5's or better is key and maybe more important than overall power from motor ?

Reason I say this is I have been trying all season with my 2332 which made 228bhp at the flywheel no cooling when first built and dyno'd so should have plenty of power and was built to run 11's ( my goal ) However my ET's have not been too consistent, with a one of best of 12.2, several 12.3's several 12.5, all without cooling and through Muffler on DOT's at 15 psi and then with belt on same setup the rest have run quite a few 12.6's up to 12.9's.

My 60 ft's have been much more consistent throughout the season from best 1.67 to worst 1.80 with typically 1.67 to 1.72  Have played with tyre pressures and launch rpm's too.

I am wondering if my clutch combo ( KEP2 and kushloc ) is just not good enough when under load with over 200 horses ?
Am also wondering if wearing slicks would hook up much better than my old DOT's ( bought them used so unknown history ) ?

What I really wanted was to have a NA motor built that could easily run 11's even if I was having a lazy off day with my launches. Basically so it would be a second faster than it is running low to mid 11's on a consistent and good day with high lazy 11's like 11.9's on an off day.

I wonder if to achieve this easily with any average street and strip ratio's and a car where no effort has been made to particularly lighten it so it's typically all steel and glass with maybe a stripped race theme interior, an typical stage 1 / 2 KEP and Daiken disc combo then realistically even with 60 ft of say 1.8 you would need to be making 250 flywheel horsespower plus ........................

[Udo]

The clutch and tires you use now is good for your gearbox :-) If you change to a harder one take car of the tansmission

Udo

[Peter Shattock]

So basically, take your average street driven car that can be driven for let's say at least 50 mile's to a race track, raced and driven home again. It cannot use any exotic fuels such as E85 or Race Blend. It has to use unleaded readily available to the pumps and in the UK that means up to 99 RON. This car would be street legal so have functioning lights and wipers and brakes on all corners. It doesn't run a spool or pro-rings in the transmission but can have any ratios and an LSD or ATB. You cannot use any performance adders like supercharged / turbocharged / Nitrous.

At the racetrack you can remove the fanbelt,choose to replace the muffler with a stinger and choose to run DOT's or slicks. But you must mention this is your feedback. If you don't we'll assume you are running with a fanbelt a muffler and street legal radials.

I'm not sure easy 11's is the way to look at this, as N/A street driven 11's are not "easy" by most peoples standards, that said you can certainly do it with what you have in terms of power. 228 is plenty for 11's, so assuming you have gear ratio's to make the most of what you have and you get some more time in the car its difficult to imagine you can't run regular 11's. 
In terms of the clutch I would say less is more, I've always run my best 60 ft's with either some wheel spin or clutch slip to keep the motor well up in the rev range of the line and for the first 10-20ft. I suspect given the motor size you have a good drop of torque to go with that power so you should be able to knock off a 10th / to 10th and a half off what you are doing currently if you get it all right.
Saving a bit of weight in the car would help too, which you can certainly do without having to cut the car about.
I'm sure you appreciate its about combinations and getting it all to work together small adjustments can make a big difference.
Keep at it and I'm sure you'll get there and when its done enjoy the drive home!

Peter

[Shane Noone]

So basically, take your average street driven car that can be driven for let's say at least 50 mile's to a race track, raced and driven home again. It cannot use any exotic fuels such as E85 or Race Blend. It has to use unleaded readily available to the pumps and in the UK that means up to 99 RON. This car would be street legal so have functioning lights and wipers and brakes on all corners. It doesn't run a spool or pro-rings in the transmission but can have any ratios and an LSD or ATB. You cannot use any performance adders like supercharged / turbocharged / Nitrous.

At the racetrack you can remove the fanbelt,choose to replace the muffler with a stinger and choose to run DOT's or slicks. But you must mention this is your feedback. If you don't we'll assume you are running with a fanbelt a muffler and street legal radials.

I'm not sure easy 11's is the way to look at this, as N/A street driven 11's are not "easy" by most peoples standards, that said you can certainly do it with what you have in terms of power. 228 is plenty for 11's, so assuming you have gear ratio's to make the most of what you have and you get some more time in the car its difficult to imagine you can't run regular 11's. 
In terms of the clutch I would say less is more, I've always run my best 60 ft's with either some wheel spin or clutch slip to keep the motor well up in the rev range of the line and for the first 10-20ft. I suspect given the motor size you have a good drop of torque to go with that power so you should be able to knock off a 10th / to 10th and a half off what you are doing currently if you get it all right.
Saving a bit of weight in the car would help too, which you can certainly do without having to cut the car about.
I'm sure you appreciate its about combinations and getting it all to work together small adjustments can make a big difference.
Keep at it and I'm sure you'll get there and when its done enjoy the drive home!

Peter

Thanks Peter.

Well that is what I thought too that power in the 220-230 bhp range would be plenty. The torque figure was 194 ft/lbs measured from flywheel. So on paper you would think well into the 11's wouldn't you. But I have tried hard all year and my 60ft's just haven't been good enough. Interesting your remarks about the clutch choice. My gear ratios are probably not ideal but they are not terrible. It is a street and strip box with stock 1st / 2nd. Not sure on 3rd and 4th as Pete couldn't recall what was fitted. I'd say the 4th feels like maybe a 1.09 or 1.14 and the R+P is 4.12

Yep as mentioned at the start. There are so many motor / tranny / suspension and tyre combo's. It's about finding the "right one" for the car in question, which is why I said I don't believe power is everything.

A good example. Today DannyBoy in Lil Lizzie ran a 12.1 at 110mph on one of his NA passes on a colder unprepped track and I think he has run well into the 11's naturally aspirated on a good track day. His motor "only" makes around 190 bhp NA at the flywheel. His R+P is a taller 3.88 with close gear sets. He runs DOT's a KEP2 and a Daiken. The car is lighter than mine but not vastly so. Now Danny is a good pilot for sure but his car always sounds so strong and never misses a beat mechanically, just keeps getting quicker and launches and hooks up very well.

Hopefully it will all come together for me next season and I can drive home smiling !

Cheers,

Shane.

[Udo]

So basically, take your average street driven car that can be driven for let's say at least 50 mile's to a race track, raced and driven home again. It cannot use any exotic fuels such as E85 or Race Blend. It has to use unleaded readily available to the pumps and in the UK that means up to 99 RON. This car would be street legal so have functioning lights and wipers and brakes on all corners. It doesn't run a spool or pro-rings in the transmission but can have any ratios and an LSD or ATB. You cannot use any performance adders like supercharged / turbocharged / Nitrous.

At the racetrack you can remove the fanbelt,choose to replace the muffler with a stinger and choose to run DOT's or slicks. But you must mention this is your feedback. If you don't we'll assume you are running with a fanbelt a muffler and street legal radials.

I'm not sure easy 11's is the way to look at this, as N/A street driven 11's are not "easy" by most peoples standards, that said you can certainly do it with what you have in terms of power. 228 is plenty for 11's, so assuming you have gear ratio's to make the most of what you have and you get some more time in the car its difficult to imagine you can't run regular 11's.  
In terms of the clutch I would say less is more, I've always run my best 60 ft's with either some wheel spin or clutch slip to keep the motor well up in the rev range of the line and for the first 10-20ft. I suspect given the motor size you have a good drop of torque to go with that power so you should be able to knock off a 10th / to 10th and a half off what you are doing currently if you get it all right.
Saving a bit of weight in the car would help too, which you can certainly do without having to cut the car about.
I'm sure you appreciate its about combinations and getting it all to work together small adjustments can make a big difference.
Keep at it and I'm sure you'll get there and when its done enjoy the drive home!

Peter

Peter your car does not count , it is too lightweight :-)

[Peter Shattock]

Funny you should say that Udo, as all the things I seam to be doing to try and make it go a little faster seam to be making it heavier! I'll get it back on the scales when its in one bit again, but I hope the performance gain out weighs the weight gain once its done!

Shane, I was 60fting the 1776 in the low 1.6's all the time with a best of 1.60 when I was running a 4.125 R&P with a stock 1st and 2nd, so with your torque and HP figures assuming your car is not really heavy you should at least be able to match that and when you have it all sorted beat it quite convincingly I would have thought.

Practice makes perfect but if you haven't got any data logging going on and or the slow-mo video you get at the pod these days to tell you what the car is doing I would get on to it next year. The data logging was a real eye opener for me. I was initially interested in the lambda readings, but soon realised there is a lot to learn from the rpm curve through the gears, particularly as you have a dyno plot so you know what power you are making where Maximise the area under the curve).

The nice thing for you is you have all the key parts there, you just need to get them together a bit better and some more seat time.

I'm sure you'll have fun trying regardless,

Good luck!

Peter

[Shane Noone]

Cheers Peter,

No idea what my car weighs. Take a stock 57 Oval, remove the stock interior and fit a cro-moly Cotsweld 6 point chassis tied cage and lightweight Corbeau Race seat and harness  It isn't super heavy for sure. I haven't made any attempt to lighten the body or chassis etc. The only concession would be raceweight Erco rims. I have tried varying launch rpm's and the 60ft's always hang around 1.67 - 1.72. Hell maybe the DOT's aren't hooking like they should. I have never experienced a "bogging" feeling when the tyre grips hard that's for sure.

I don't have any data logging and people that have watched me launch always comment how the care looks to launch well with a nice amount of squat off the line. Who knows. Bloody frustrating though !!

Your 1776 was a cracker for sure. I remember when Ian was interested that my old 1835 made 169 bhp on Dells, then he went and whipped my arse with the 1776 

I also heard as Udo mentioned that your car was " super light " and we know that will help to some extent.

Anyway thanks to everyone who has chipped in so far with ideas and clues.

Cheers

Shane.

[Udo]

Funny you should say that Udo, as all the things I seam to be doing to try and make it go a little faster seam to be making it heavier! I'll get it back on the scales when its in one bit again, but I hope the performance gain out weighs the weight gain once its done!

Peter

That is not good. May be you get some more cc then :-)

1,6 is good for DOT tires . And they save the gearbox
Udo

[dannyboy]

Funny you should say that Udo, as all the things I seam to be doing to try and make it go a little faster seam to be making it heavier! I'll get it back on the scales when its in one bit again, but I hope the performance gain out weighs the weight gain once its done!

Peter

That is not good. May be you get some more cc then :-)

1,6 is good for DOT tires . And they save the gearbox
Udo

1.45 on dots with a good track 

[dyno don]

Answer: You Dont..!!  Not an easy task(to run easy 11's) as discussed, however with... 1) a light car (1400lbs)and 180hp and old school traditional gearing (i.E) 4:37/158/121....   2) or  turbo/if you get frustrated(I read your beginning statement).... you can achieve your goal with a lot less effort.