How do you run easy 11's in a naturally aspirated street car ???

[dannyboy]

Answer: You Dont..!!  Not an easy task(to run easy 11's) as discussed, however with... 1) a light car (1400lbs)and 180hp and old school traditional gearing (i.E) 4:37/158/121....   2) or  turbo/if you get frustrated(I read your beginning statement).... you can achieve your goal with a lot less effort.

lol ive been telling him to add gas all year run easy mid 12s then add gas and run easy 11s 
but he wont listen 

[richie]

Dyno hit the nail on the head   simply put,  "you don't " its alot of work unless you can pay someone to do the work for you,or do as others have done,buy a 10 second car from another country and by the time it gets to england you will have an 11 second car

The best piece fo advice i have is " loose any stupid self inflicted limitations" we all have them, if you want a car that you can drive on the street and run 11s, do what it takes, I wouldnt recomend to anyone to take advice from Danny , but if you want a street car with livable gearbox ratios then you need to have a power adder for the track or run 32inch tall rear tyres on the road so you can live with the stupiod short gearing you need to run 11s N/A


Hi Robkong, see you sunday?   

Matt, search for Hot rod drag week,then search Larry Larson

I was keeping quiet about my plans,but the basis of it will be a JPM headed turbo engine on E85 as its readily available in the areas they run the event




cheers richie 

[Shane Noone]

Answer: You Dont..!!  Not an easy task(to run easy 11's) as discussed, however with... 1) a light car (1400lbs)and 180hp and old school traditional gearing (i.E) 4:37/158/121....   2) or  turbo/if you get frustrated(I read your beginning statement).... you can achieve your goal with a lot less effort.

I know it's not easy from my own personal experiences and my subject heading was intended to be a little " tongue in cheek " but with the hope it would get people talking as to how feasible it is. I remember when I was running 13's here in the UK in a street and strip fully road legal bug and that was fast in it's day here but we all want to go faster and like many other similar racers at the time Richie and Matt, our goals soon became who would be be first to run in the twelves. This was years ago now and we all achieved that in the end and obviously both Richie and Matt chased the numbers and maybe set aside any personal limitations to do so and hey presto guys you have run low 9's and now chasing 8's eh Richie 

My point is when I was running 13's I longed for 12's and at the time people said without NOS or Turbo then no way, you need to be very light car of making serious power that from the commonly used parts available at the common low CR's people believed you couldn't cross and run on the street as decreed by the late great Gene Berg among others, some of us pushed those limits and started to use parts only previously deemed as " drag race only " on the street fairly reliably for day to day use ( not withstanding long term longevity that a stock motor would offer ).

So fast forward a bunch of years and there are so many products now on offer especially with cylinder heads and so much new and innovative design from people like JPM then is it really so unreasonable to long to run effortless 11's naturally aspirated in my street legal and street driven stock weight bug with close ratio box ? I used to run 1.58 / 1.21 by 4.12 with a low profile 60 series tyre on the street all the time. Sure cruising speed was limited to around 45 mph but hey it was a trade off I was happy to make to run fast at the track 

Danny - yes mate I hear you and that would be the " easy solution" Look at what 100 shot of NOS has done for you. It's awesome and undeniable. I guess Richie, this is where my pwn personal limitation holds me back as I am stubborn in the fact for me the use of NOS was always to be the icing on the cake and not the easy way out. I wanted to run 11.8's with the belt and muffler in place then use  a 30-50 shot of NOS to pull me into low 11's

I always admired and wanted to pilot a car that performed like Dave Mason's black bug. That car is one of my earliest inspirations as I'm sure it has been for many along with what Muffler Mike Sheldon was accomplishing before the switch to Turbo to name just two guys that for me epitomised what I wanted to achieve.

Cheers

Shane.

[richie]

I always admired and wanted to pilot a car that performed like Dave Mason's black bug.
Cheers

Shane.

you know that only runs 11s with the nitrous switched on right?

cheers richie

[Jeff68]

This is a great question. I agree with the experienced forum members on this one - It's not easy. I only think it would be easier if you went through the learning curve and have done it already.

My thought process / questions:
1.) Do I have enough money?
2.) Mathematically, how much power do I need?
3.) What do I have to do to the chassis, brakes, cage, etc?
4.) How should I tune the chassis to hook up at the track and drive on the street?
5.) Do I have the brains, ability, know how, resources, and time to do the work properly / safely and tune and maintain the car?

If you're lacking in 2 - 4 , do you have a lot of money?
Even if you had a lot of money, I think having an 11 sec street car and not knowing what's going on with it / how it works / how to maintain it, you would have a tough time owning ,driving and enjoying it. Just my opinion.

[TexasTom]

This is a great question. I agree with the experienced forum members on this one - It's not easy. I only think it would be easier if you went through the learning curve and have done it already.

My thought process / questions:
1.) Do I have enough money?
2.) Mathematically, how much power do I need?
3.) What do I have to do to the chassis, brakes, cage, etc?
4.) How should I tune the chassis to hook up at the track and drive on the street?
5.) Do I have the brains, ability, know how, resources, and time to do the work properly / safely and tune and maintain the car?

If you're lacking in 2 - 4 , do you have a lot of money?
Even if you had a lot of money, I think having an 11 sec street car and not knowing what's going on with it / how it works / how to maintain it, you would have a tough time owning ,driving and enjoying it. Just my opinion.

ALL good points, Jeff!
For me, not knowing would make the ride last a very short time!
TxT

[Simpsonshoe]

Build A PRO GAS car....  back down the compression and perhaps gear it a little less nervous.  Tony Klink ran 9 ish c/r  oval ports.. a step or two down from the PG wedgies.. 11.44 at 1750 pounds with his street car before he put the PG heads on it.Three of these cars at 1730-1750 pounds and mucho comp are in the TENS. Off the rack CNC stuff rocks...

[TexasTom]

Now the question was "EASY" 11s ...

I revert back to my original comment:

4" BORE!!!

Simple daily driver by day, HOLY TERROR at the TRACK on Friday & Saturday Nights!!!

... just make sure your drivetrain can support 250+ ftlbs of TORQUE!

 
TxT

[Simpsonshoe]

Tom, as far as a simple easy to build car, it really don't get a whole lot easier.. If you saw Tony's car before the latest chassis work, you would be amazed at how simple.. As i stated above, at 1730-50 pounds these cars are in the TENS.. order it today have it next week long block pieces ready to assemble in your spare time. Klink ran a 9.3 or so compression with the smaller than Wedge ports.. an off the shelf Engle and full street equipment..Ran 11's .build that kit, put it is a decent car,and ... Take a little compression out, gear it for a little less buzz.. and you have your 11 second machine. 5 or six guys running the CB 044 PRO GQAS class have gotten low 11's high tens...  with  cam compression and 1750 pounds.. take a little weight out...

[Fiatdude]

A few lights and things .. .. .. I thunk your there with this

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1337349

[NoBars]

I have found it not too easy to get an 1800 pound combo in the 11s, I have done it 1/8 mile with sub 7.60 (7.46 best) passes but on race fuel and a fair amount of compression. (All it takes is $$) I have a few 30 mile trips on it. If it is not mid summer the temps stay under control. I have a couple things to do to the car, and intend to get an 11 second slip before our track closes this year.

I have done it with Comp e's and now with a stock style (044) head. Both With Udos lifters.

I think lack of testing has been my biggest drawback. I run the car at our club races (Aircooled Streetcar Association), and I am not in an analytical frame of mind at that point, more like a panic frame of mind. As our desire to stomp each other into a mudhole increases I am going to have to run the car, test more.

Chuck it is cool to see that your new car is done. The green one was inspirational to me after I bought my car 7 years ago after kinda retiring from dragbikes.

Cool thread. you don't see too much streetcar stuff on UAC.

just to clarify, no fanbelt, spool and DOTs. all street equipment but wipers.

[Dead Dog]

Last year my PB in my beetle was 12.3, this year I've swapped to raceweight ercos front runners & slicks(6"), and sorted launch control to pin point launch RPM every launch - and my PB now is 11.85.
My car is steel bodied '71 beetle, glass but with only drivers seat.
I run a 206 bhp 1914 turbo motor.
I know our engines are different, my point is slicks gave me quite a bit 

[Shane Noone]

Last year my PB in my beetle was 12.3, this year I've swapped to raceweight ercos front runners & slicks(6"), and sorted launch control to pin point launch RPM every launch - and my PB now is 11.85.
My car is steel bodied '71 beetle, glass but with only drivers seat.
I run a 206 bhp 1914 turbo motor.
I know our engines are different, my point is slicks gave me quite a bit 

Hi DD,

Now your comments are interesting and the sort of feedback that could prove useful to me. Using new 6" slicks over my old DOT's was one thing I was seriously pondering and the use of launch control another. It is interesting you have have tried these and feel happy to attribute your drop in ET's quite considerably as well to this combo.
So that poses another question, which is, does the launch RPM make a big difference to your ET

I currently don't use launch control and blip the throttle at the tree keeping the motor buzzing around 5-6000 rpm before releasing / sidestepping the clutch trying to find a happy medium between bogging and too much wheelspin....

Cheers guys for all your thoughts and feedback so far...

Shane.

[BeetleBug]

So that poses another question, which is, does the launch RPM make a big difference to your ET

Shane.

I hope it is OK that I jump in to answer your questions above. The answer is YES! The launch is by far the most important area and where you should focus your efforts. A poor launch and you can just as well abort the run unless you are not one of the very few lucky ones without enough power to make up for a poor start. So what is a good start? Anything above 1.55 and you have work to do if you ask me.. 

 

[leec]

Last year my PB in my beetle was 12.3, this year I've swapped to raceweight ercos front runners & slicks(6"), and sorted launch control to pin point launch RPM every launch - and my PB now is 11.85.
My car is steel bodied '71 beetle, glass but with only drivers seat.
I run a 206 bhp 1914 turbo motor.
I know our engines are different, my point is slicks gave me quite a bit 

Hi DD,

Now your comments are interesting and the sort of feedback that could prove useful to me. Using new 6" slicks over my old DOT's was one thing I was seriously pondering and the use of launch control another. It is interesting you have have tried these and feel happy to attribute your drop in ET's quite considerably as well to this combo.
So that poses another question, which is, does the launch RPM make a big difference to your ET

I currently don't use launch control and blip the throttle at the tree keeping the motor buzzing around 5-6000 rpm before releasing / sidestepping the clutch trying to find a happy medium between bogging and too much wheelspin....

Cheers guys for all your thoughts and feedback so far...

Shane.

Hi Shane,

Have you considered one more idea, I use M+H front runners as well as slicks. Sure thats worth something in you quest for 11's.

[Shane Noone]

So that poses another question, which is, does the launch RPM make a big difference to your ET

Shane.

I hope it is OK that I jump in to answer your questions above. The answer is YES! The launch is by far the most important area and where you should focus your efforts. A poor launch and you can just as well abort the run unless you are not one of the very few lucky ones without enough power to make up for a poor start. So what is a good start? Anything above 1.55 and you have work to do if you ask me.. 

 

Hey BB,

Sure , no problem jumping in at all. Ok, so with my 5-6000 rpm launches, blipping the throttle as mentioned and running 14-15 psi in my DOT's my 60ft' are always 1.66 - 1.72 even if the tyre pressure is up to 17psi, I haven't noticed much difference....so I am a long way off 1.55 or better as it stands. I would guess either the kushloc is offering too much slippage before hooking or the DOT's aren't gripping like they should as my reactions always seem good even against for example my buddy Dannyboy who runs 10.79 with 1.45 60ft's.

Lee,

Thanks for chipping in. No, I haven't thought about frontrunners although I know some of you guys use them. Do they really make a significant difference then ? Or is it a case of every bit helps....

Cheers

Shane.

s

[BeetleBug]

Hey BB,

Sure , no problem jumping in at all. Ok, so with my 5-6000 rpm launches, blipping the throttle as mentioned and running 14-15 psi in my DOT's my 60ft' are always 1.66 - 1.72 even if the tyre pressure is up to 17psi, I haven't noticed much difference....so I am a long way off 1.55 or better as it stands. I would guess either the kushloc is offering too much slippage before hooking or the DOT's aren't gripping like they should as my reactions always seem good even against for example my buddy Dannyboy who runs 10.79 with 1.45 60ft's.

Shane.

OK, at least you know where you should focus. Get that 60ft down and your ET will improve. One thing is for certain, the MH DOTS offer excellent grip on a good strip and my best 60ft with them is 1.42 (full weight 67) Several others are between 1.45 to 1.50. I also used to run with 14 - 17 psi but I found big improvements with going lower and the 1.42 was set with 13 psi. You need to dentify if you have wheelspin or clutch slip.

Good luck!

You

[TexasTom]

Tom, as far as a simple easy to build car, it really don't get a whole lot easier.. If you saw Tony's car before the latest chassis work, you would be amazed at how simple.. As i stated above, at 1730-50 pounds these cars are in the TENS.. order it today have it next week long block pieces ready to assemble in your spare time. Klink ran a 9.3 or so compression with the smaller than Wedge ports.. an off the shelf Engle and full street equipment..Ran 11's .build that kit, put it is a decent car,and ... Take a little compression out, gear it for a little less buzz.. and you have your 11 second machine. 5 or six guys running the CB 044 PRO GQAS class have gotten low 11's high tens...  with  cam compression and 1750 pounds.. take a little weight out...

Now I know one of the reasons my life is so much harder ... by my own guidance!
I guess we just have different ideas of what makes a streetcar
#1 - mine won't have slicks ... they aren't Legal Here.

No BIG deal!
TxT

[leec]

I have no data as such to say front runners make the car quicker, but the car went from 12.1's to 11.9's by changing to front runners but also to bigger Jaycee stacks and fuel inlets (all 3 changed at once)

Sure more experienced racers may have a view?

Also, I launch at a lower rpm, 4600-5000 I keep it at those revs using handbrake preloading the box, then foot to floor when handbrake goes down. I also remember your car sits a bit lower than mine at the rear?

Lee

[richie]

You should not mix radial tyres with bias ply,so running slicks really requires matching front runners,and they are light,

If you are not launching with your foot to the floor you are giving away ET,and the only way to do that is with a 2 step,my belief is that you want to launch at a high enough rpm that when the clutch engauges the rpm does not drop below the max torque so approx 5500rpm,this means you need to leave at around 6800rpm in alot of cases,that is were I start with on the 2 step setting,then move up or down depending on wether the car bogs or spins the tyres.Blipping the throttle is just throwing alot of un needed fuel down the intake and your not anywhere near max performance,unless you have a stupidly short 1st gear it will just bog if you have any traction,beliive me I did this for years and the 60ft gain was huge by leaving on the 2step

cheers richie

[dannyboy]

You should not mix radial tyres with bias ply,so running slicks really requires matching front runners,and they are light,

If you are not launching with your foot to the floor you are giving away ET,and the only way to do that is with a 2 step,my belief is that you want to launch at a high enough rpm that when the clutch engauges the rpm does not drop below the max torque so approx 5500rpm,this means you need to leave at around 6800rpm in alot of cases,that is were I start with on the 2 step setting,then move up or down depending on wether the car bogs or spins the tyres.Blipping the throttle is just throwing alot of un needed fuel down the intake and your not anywhere near max performance,unless you have a stupidly short 1st gear it will just bog if you have any traction,beliive me I did this for years and the 60ft gain was huge by leaving on the 2step

cheers richie

this is the first on my list of things to sort for next season 

[Shane Noone]

You should not mix radial tyres with bias ply,so running slicks really requires matching front runners,and they are light,

If you are not launching with your foot to the floor you are giving away ET,and the only way to do that is with a 2 step,my belief is that you want to launch at a high enough rpm that when the clutch engauges the rpm does not drop below the max torque so approx 5500rpm,this means you need to leave at around 6800rpm in alot of cases,that is were I start with on the 2 step setting,then move up or down depending on wether the car bogs or spins the tyres.Blipping the throttle is just throwing alot of un needed fuel down the intake and your not anywhere near max performance,unless you have a stupidly short 1st gear it will just bog if you have any traction,beliive me I did this for years and the 60ft gain was huge by leaving on the 2step

cheers richie

Thanks Richie, that is very interesting ! Clearly my technique is costing me dear on ET's as I am not using a two step ( yet ) and know I am not flooring the throttle when I launch. Maybe overly cautious old habits are costing me those 11's for sure then.....hmmmmm lots of food for thought for 2013 

Cheers, Shane.

[Russell]

Its actually very easy to make a low 12 second car run in the elevens..... do what i do, let someone else drive.......

My PB is still 12.01......

[Simpsonshoe]

Yes, it is amazing how much seat time and minor tuning can help.. jetting, timing, tires pressure, wheel alignment and lunch and shift RPM are all part of dialing in a car..Even little,seemingly insignificant items, like seat adjustment ,and footwear can have an effect....From first lap to dialed in I have never failed to find several tenths with just little changes..5-7 tenths is the norm...f you want to go quicker and faster.. spend some track time.. take a friend with a video cam and a few tools and some jets. A lot of guys have no idea what they should shift at.. and thus shift too high...the engine wants to works where it wants.. not what you think it should be. 

[leec]

Dragging this thread back up.....

Weighed my Beetle today, bang on 680kg which is just under 1500lbs by my maths. That is without driver and 1/4 tank of fuel

Lee

[Shane Noone]

Dragging this thread back up.....

Weighed my Beetle today, bang on 680kg which is just under 1500lbs by my maths. That is without driver and 1/4 tank of fuel

Lee

Hey Lee, Does that mean your Oval is light ? I'm not aware if you have done anything to your bug to lighten it from stock ? I need to find somewhere to easily take mine for a weigh in. I looked up the what is supposed to be stock 57 Oval kerb weight and a couple of sources suggest 740 kgs.....?  I also recalled that USA pounds are different to UK pounds when doing conversions to kgs from USA quoted weights in lbs......

So assuming your Oval weighed around 740 in stock form Lee, do you think you could have shed 60 kgs from the car ?

Think Dannyboy's Lil Lizzie ( ex Hembug ) was weighed at 690 kgs without driver and minimal fuel. Chip in Danny if this is not correct but interesting to compare weight with Lee's as I know you have carried out some lightening of panels and windows and sheetmetal in places with racing fuel tank.

Lee, do you still run stock Oval fuel tank and all steel panels / bodywork / window glass ?

Cheers,

Shane.

[leec]

Hi Shane,

Car is all steel, stock fuel tank, wipers, horn etc. Has lexan windows and ali floor pan washers and wing bolts.

Lee

[Shane Noone]

Hi Shane,

Car is all steel, stock fuel tank, wipers, horn etc. Has lexan windows and ali floor pan washers and wing bolts.

Lee

Hi Lee,

Ok cool. I wonder how much weight is saved with Lexan ( what sides / doors ? ) and your ally washers and bolts.....?   Interesting guessing you never weighed before and after as it were

Cheers

Shane.

[leec]

Saved 5.9kg with the bolts, cooking scales came in handy 

Lee

[dannyboy]

690 without driver full tank of fuel and full bottle of gas  bottle of gas is about 12kgs i think and my car is all steel apart from bonnet and decklid /lexan windows