How do you run easy 11's in a naturally aspirated street car ???

[henk]

is there some kind of a rule when you lighten your car compared to the time on the 1/4 mile.
i mean how manny kg do you have to lose to go 0.5sec faster for example?
off course whit a big engine i don't mean stock.

henk!!!

[richie]

is there some kind of a rule when you lighten your car compared to the time on the 1/4 mile.
i mean how manny kg do you have to lose to go 0.5sec faster for example?
off course whit a big engine i don't mean stock.

henk!!!

It seems to be a ratio of weight lost to speed gained,but 100lb from a stock weight bug should gain you 0.2 to 0.3 of a second at least,as an example a 1900lb bug with 200hp calcs ET of 12.34@108mph,at 1800 lb with the same 200hp it calcs at 12.12@110mph,at 1700lb 11.89@112mph,1600lb 11.65@115mph.

I used this 1/4 mile calculator to get these results

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php


Its not the gospel ,but fairly accurate

cheers richie

[leec]

Thanks Richie,

So if my bug weighs 1500lbs and I'm just over 14 stone, that equals 1700ibs in total

I have ran 11.94 at 110 so the calculator looks almost spot on as I assume my 2276 has around 200bhp.

So if I save 100lbs, I'm 0.2 quicker!!

Lee

[dannyboy]

yeah i reckon it looks pretty close i make mine 1964 with me in it and pb is 11.8 off the gas and i reckon im under 200 as the belt was on and dyno says 175fwhp with belt 

[henk]

thank richie,

interesting link,time now to weigh the car and see how much horsepower it has.
then have a look what it could be when i lighten the cars.

henk!!!

[NoBars]

13 pounds. 

Washers to the floor pan. Kept the stock bolts?

Aluminum washers and bolts to the "wings"?

That's amazing. Guess I'm gonna get some.

I am allowed another 75 off the car but I don't want to cut it up.

[richie]

690 without driver full tank of fuel and full bottle of gas  bottle of gas is about 12kgs i think and my car is all steel apart from bonnet and decklid /lexan windows

690kg =1518lbs

yeah i reckon it looks pretty close i make mine 1964 with me in it and pb is 11.8 off the gas and i reckon im under 200 as the belt was on and dyno says 175fwhp with belt 

I am thinking you meant 1694lbs total? not 1964lbs?





One thing to remember is as the MPH goes up as you lighten it your finish line rpm goes up,if it wont rev that high then you wont see the gains,at the same time if your gearing is to tall right now as you lighten it you will gain more as it will pull the rpm that it wouldn't before to overcome the weight


cheers richie

[dannyboy]

yes mate 1694 with my fat arse in it

[MeXX]

Hi

In my opinion there are two things that can your car propell deep into the 11's.

1. There is no replacement 4 displacement, so move to 4 inch bore
2. Is the weight transfere: so put 25lbs of a blue bottle in your car.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/GYTvsVQviXU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/GYTvsVQviXU</a>

MeXX

[nilsg]

Here is my take on an 11 second NA street beetle:

2387 with JPM MS230 heads, 51,5 IDA and FK89.
VW mag case and stock oil cooler only. Runs on regular pump gas.

The car is a full weight mostly stock 1963 type 1 (all glass, stock seats, mats, doorpanels, but with a rollbar and lowered front end)

It will run high 11s with a close ratio gearbox (3,88 r/p and 1,26 4th), MH dots, muffler and w/o fan belt.

I have driven it almost 100 miles each way to and from the racetrack many times, often carrying my gear in the backseat.

My philosophy has been to try to keep the car itself as close to stock as possible, avoid unnecessary complicated solutions, and use quality components that are known to work.

Enclosed is a photo of the car from BugRun Sweden 2011 and a timeslip.

The engine has dynoed 245 hp with muffler and w/o fan belt.


regards

Nils

[Jesse/DVK]

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

[Shane Noone]

Here is my take on an 11 second NA street beetle:

2387 with JPM MS230 heads, 51,5 IDA and FK89.
VW mag case and stock oil cooler only. Runs on regular pump gas.

The car is a full weight mostly stock 1963 type 1 (all glass, stock seats, mats, doorpanels, but with a rollbar and lowered front end)

It will run high 11s with a close ratio gearbox (3,88 r/p and 1,26 4th), MH dots, muffler and w/o fan belt.

I have driven it almost 100 miles each way to and from the racetrack many times, often carrying my gear in the backseat.

My philosophy has been to try to keep the car itself as close to stock as possible, avoid unnecessary complicated solutions, and use quality components that are known to work.

Enclosed is a photo of the car from BugRun Sweden 2011 and a timeslip.

The engine has dynoed 245 hp with muffler and w/o fan belt.


regards

Nils

Hi Nils,

Now that is what I am talking about !!  To me you have succeeded exactly with the format I have been using in my quest for high 11's N/A.  Your motor makes good power indeed.  I am curious why you chose a 3.88 Ring and Pinion in a relatively heavy car though. What are the rest of your gear ratios and your 60ft's ?  In my old 83 Mex, I ran a 3.78 / 2.25 / 1.58 / 1.21 by 3.88 and struggled with my 60ft's compared to my old 1.21 4th and 4.12 in my 63 bug and it actually felt slower off the line. Admittedly the 83 was heavier as full street and full interior, a real sleeper.

Out of curiosity with your MS230's / FK89 / pump fuel, what Compression Ratio do you choose to run with ?

Cheers

Shane.

[Shane Noone]

Whoops, just noticed your 60 ft's on the timeslip !

1.60 is decent and 6 tenths better than my best on DOT's

I think getting away at the tree is definetly an issue for me and holding 11's away from me.....

[leec]

Shane,

Why don't you buy the slicks Udo is selling in 'For Sale' Cheap enough to give it a try

Lee

[nilsg]

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

Thanks, and yes, only stock oil cooler and have never had a problem with the car overheating on highway trips. The MS 230 is a good street head! It probably also helps that it usually doesn't get very warm in Norway :-)

[nilsg]

Here is my take on an 11 second NA street beetle:

2387 with JPM MS230 heads, 51,5 IDA and FK89.
VW mag case and stock oil cooler only. Runs on regular pump gas.

The car is a full weight mostly stock 1963 type 1 (all glass, stock seats, mats, doorpanels, but with a rollbar and lowered front end)

It will run high 11s with a close ratio gearbox (3,88 r/p and 1,26 4th), MH dots, muffler and w/o fan belt.

I have driven it almost 100 miles each way to and from the racetrack many times, often carrying my gear in the backseat.

My philosophy has been to try to keep the car itself as close to stock as possible, avoid unnecessary complicated solutions, and use quality components that are known to work.

Enclosed is a photo of the car from BugRun Sweden 2011 and a timeslip.

The engine has dynoed 245 hp with muffler and w/o fan belt.


regards

Nils

Hi Nils,

Now that is what I am talking about !!  To me you have succeeded exactly with the format I have been using in my quest for high 11's N/A.  Your motor makes good power indeed.  I am curious why you chose a 3.88 Ring and Pinion in a relatively heavy car though. What are the rest of your gear ratios and your 60ft's ?  In my old 83 Mex, I ran a 3.78 / 2.25 / 1.58 / 1.21 by 3.88 and struggled with my 60ft's compared to my old 1.21 4th and 4.12 in my 63 bug and it actually felt slower off the line. Admittedly the 83 was heavier as full street and full interior, a real sleeper.

Out of curiosity with your MS230's / FK89 / pump fuel, what Compression Ratio do you choose to run with ?

Cheers

Shane.

Hi, the reason for the 3,88 is that it is typically stronger than a 4,12. I currently have a 4,11 first which actually feels a bit short at times. After launching I will hit the rev limiter (7900 rpm) quicker than I like and may therefore try a longer first gear in the future. Second and third are 2,46 and 1,65 if I remember correctly. CR is around 10,5 but could have been higher. Next engine combo may have higher compression and a few other mods. Would be nice to have 270ish streetable horses :-)

[Shane Noone]

Thanks for sharing Nils. That's interesting feedback on gear ratios. Thought about a long 1st myself a few times over the years but haven't tried it yet. Ok, re strength of 3.88 over 4.12. I always kind of thought of the 3.88 as best suited to a either a "light weight" car or Nitrous car but hey whatever works. Your still getting good 60ft's with it and that's all that matters. I wonder how much difference the close 1st and 2nd combo makes to the 60ft even with a "taller" Ring and Pinion.....?

Wow, your CR is conservative and definetly more " street ". Makes your motor power even more impressive to me. Well done. Those MS230's must work really well ! 

Cheers

Shane.

[neil68]

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

Thanks, and yes, only stock oil cooler and have never had a problem with the car overheating on highway trips. The MS 230 is a good street head! It probably also helps that it usually doesn't get very warm in Norway :-)

I can also vouch for how cool the MS230 heads run.  My 2332 cc, 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, Raptor cam, 91/94 octane pump fuel uses the stock OEM FI doghouse cooling only.  After two years, it seems to run at about the same temperatures as the stock engine...but much more fun at the track   These might be the last set of heads that I ever buy...

[Shane Noone]

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

Thanks, and yes, only stock oil cooler and have never had a problem with the car overheating on highway trips. The MS 230 is a good street head! It probably also helps that it usually doesn't get very warm in Norway :-)

I can also vouch for how cool the MS230 heads run.  My 2332 cc, 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, Raptor cam, 91/94 octane pump fuel uses the stock OEM FI doghouse cooling only.  After two years, it seems to run at about the same temperatures as the stock engine...but much more fun at the track   These might be the last set of heads that I ever buy...

Hi Neil,

That's good feedback too on the MS230's for a racer that wants the car to be streetable 

Correct me if I'm wrong please but didn't you used to run something like a webcam 86c in that motor and simply switched to using a raptor cam wihout any other changes ( heads ? CR? ) . How are you finding the change. Did the motor make any more power with the raptor cam or was it just more " flexible" in terms of power delivery across a broader rpm range ?  And hence did you gain any improvements on your ET's from this change as I thought your ET in your signature was the same as when you ran with the webcam ?

Cheers

Shane.

[Udo]

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

Thanks, and yes, only stock oil cooler and have never had a problem with the car overheating on highway trips. The MS 230 is a good street head! It probably also helps that it usually doesn't get very warm in Norway :-)

I can also vouch for how cool the MS230 heads run.  My 2332 cc, 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, Raptor cam, 91/94 octane pump fuel uses the stock OEM FI doghouse cooling only.  After two years, it seems to run at about the same temperatures as the stock engine...but much more fun at the track  These might be the last set of heads that I ever buy...

So you must run easy 11's now ?

Udo

[neil68]

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

Thanks, and yes, only stock oil cooler and have never had a problem with the car overheating on highway trips. The MS 230 is a good street head! It probably also helps that it usually doesn't get very warm in Norway :-)

I can also vouch for how cool the MS230 heads run.  My 2332 cc, 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, Raptor cam, 91/94 octane pump fuel uses the stock OEM FI doghouse cooling only.  After two years, it seems to run at about the same temperatures as the stock engine...but much more fun at the track  These might be the last set of heads that I ever buy...

Hi Neil,

That's good feedback too on the MS230's for a racer that wants the car to be streetable  

Correct me if I'm wrong please but didn't you used to run something like a webcam 86c in that motor and simply switched to using a raptor cam wihout any other changes ( heads ? CR? ) . How are you finding the change. Did the motor make any more power with the raptor cam or was it just more " flexible" in terms of power delivery across a broader rpm range ?  And hence did you gain any improvements on your ET's from this change as I thought your ET in your signature was the same as when you ran with the webcam ?

Cheers

Shane.

Shane:  Yes, 12.8 ET with Web 86C and 12.9 ET with Raptor 06908...same top speed at 104 MPH.  They're actually similar cams, except for lift:

Web 86C:  272 degrees (@ 0.050"), 0.390" lift, IO 28 degrees BTDC, IC 64 degrees ABDC, EO 64 degrees BBDC, EC 28 degrees ATDC
Raptor 06908: 274 degrees (0.050"), 0.425" lift, IO 29 degrees BTDC, IC 65 degrees ABDC, EO 65 degrees BBDC, EC 29 degrees ATDC

Udo:  Regarding why I'm still in the high 12's and not 11's, it could be several things:
-Beetle weighs 2,030 lb (923 kg) with driver on board,
-Steel EMPI Sprintstar wheels,
-Need some dyno tuning/jetting,
-Too much air pressure in the tires...trying not to break the transaxle,
-No burnout,
-Poor driver in the cockpit...shifting too slow, etc,
-Other??

[TexasTom]

Yes ... we have the same problem, Neil, in that the late model cars are just heavier!
I speced the 'ready to drive' weights for '69 and '63 T1s in the respective owners manuals: 1807 versus 1631 lbs.!
So, we have around 170 pound disadvantage from the start!
Wonder where it all is?
A few quick guesses: Ball joint front end, larger seats, longer torsion bars, control arm rear suspension, larger heater box/exhaust system ... oh yeah! And the larger taillights! LOL

Did you use the same valvetrain components with the Raptor cam? I'm going super lightweight with mine to take advantage of the easier ramps ... free up some HorsePower!

TxT

[Jon]

Neal, at what elevation are you setting these ET's?
Did you specify that you wanted to do elevens in such a heavy car when you ordered the cam?

[neil68]

12.8 (Web 86C in 2011) and 12.9 (Raptor cam in 2012) ET's were at sea level.

12.9 (Web 86C in 2011) and 13.0 (Raptor cam in 2012) were at at 2,200 ft (670 m).

Mostly the Beetle runs consistent low 13's.  I have changed jets and vents a bit, but have not been back to the dyno for a couple years...so I certainly need to do that this winter.

Yes, the Raptor cam was a custom grind based on Beetle weight, 1.41:1 Scat rockers, IDA's, MS230 heads flycut to 50 cc chambers, 0.040" DH.  Actual lift is 0.599" (15.23 mm) at the valve.

So far, I've experimented with Engle FK8 (with 044 heads) and with MS230 heads the following cams: Web 86C, Web 226, Web 251 and Raptor 06908...all with the same Scat 1.41:1 rockers, 1.75" header, IDA's (enlarged float bowls).  I switched from stock fuel pump to electric fuel pump and that didn't change anything.

[neil68]

Hi Neil,

That's good feedback too on the MS230's for a racer that wants the car to be streetable 

Correct me if I'm wrong please but didn't you used to run something like a webcam 86c in that motor and simply switched to using a raptor cam wihout any other changes ( heads ? CR? ) . How are you finding the change. Did the motor make any more power with the raptor cam or was it just more " flexible" in terms of power delivery across a broader rpm range ?  And hence did you gain any improvements on your ET's from this change as I thought your ET in your signature was the same as when you ran with the webcam ?

Cheers

Shane.

Update:  I thought I would update this "11-second thread", since there are also comments about 12-second racers as well.  I posted on one of the other threads, so my apologies for the duplication, but I know when I search for information, it's nice to have it all captured in one or two relevant threads.

So, I'm thinking that the Raptor cam was simply wanting higher rpms than I had given it, and is starting to work a bit better now.  Moved the rev limiter up to 7900 and was hitting it on the first and second shifts.  Also, increased the launch to 5500 rpm.

This produced my best race for ET, top-end speed and sixty-foot:

12.658-seconds
106.44 MPH
1.718-seconds 60'

Hoping to race a few more times in September and experiment with launch rpms and tire pressure.

Shane:  congrats on your 11's!!

[dannyboy]

its all done now nyway shane took the belt off  11.96 well done mate you deserve it 

[Shane Noone]

its all done now nyway shane took the belt off  11.96 well done mate you deserve it 

Cheers Danny  but I'd still like to run deeper into the 11's and without taking the belt off !!    that's what I mean by easy 11's

I got some ways to go yet buddy but hopefully......