Off the shelve engine building

[busgods]

Passed through an interesting blog build at -on all cylinders-. Looks to be a Summit sponsored site if I got it right. Never the less, these guys put together a Chevy V8 out of off the shelve parts available from Summit mega store shelves. Some port work was carried out on cylinder heads but really nothing too magical I believe. Results are, should I say impressive even if some "advertisement" figures were used. Also if you add the parts on the shopping cart, the hp/spent buck ain't too shabby either? With the same liter/hp ratio vw builder should expect around 255hp out of an 2332cc engine. I've read a few articles in HotVW's some time ago where they built a post order engine but it did not really reach this height in results. A guess what I'm trying to say it would be interesting to see what results would one get from parts readily available for VW scene, in one web store of course...

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/10/19/top-class-565-part-3-finishing-touches-and-dyno-results/

[BeetleBug]

I dont get your question.

100+ hp per liter VW engines have been available for a long time. With off the shelf parts we are close to 100 hp per liter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WJK5zlbvGtA

-BB-

[busgods]

A guess there was not really any question involved, merely an observation... 

[gizago]

It might make the numbers built straight off the shelf, but how long will it last??

I mean, all engine builders have their tweeks they like to make to cases, cranks etc for better oiling, cooling and longevity.

[Zach Gomulka]

And how much did it cost?

[Jon]

It might make the numbers built straight off the shelf, but how long will it last??

I mean, all engine builders have their tweeks they like to make to cases, cranks etc for better oiling, cooling and longevity.

That's a big point, all the parts you buy only has BIG HP potential...  They will not deliver it unless it's all combined, fitted and tweeaked right.
Or as with turbo engines, they all deliver big hp on the dyno, but unless it's built right it wont show it on the track...

It always pays of to use a experienced engine designer/builder.

[richie]

Passed through an interesting blog build at -on all cylinders-. Looks to be a Summit sponsored site if I got it right. Never the less, these guys put together a Chevy V8 out of off the shelve parts available from Summit mega store shelves. Some port work was carried out on cylinder heads but really nothing too magical I believe. Results are, should I say impressive even if some "advertisement" figures were used. Also if you add the parts on the shopping cart, the hp/spent buck ain't too shabby either? With the same liter/hp ratio vw builder should expect around 255hp out of an 2332cc engine. I've read a few articles in HotVW's some time ago where they built a post order engine but it did not really reach this height in results. A guess what I'm trying to say it would be interesting to see what results would one get from parts readily available for VW scene, in one web store of course...

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/10/19/top-class-565-part-3-finishing-touches-and-dyno-results/

Thats an interesting read,I feel there is some manipulating of the facts there,it sounds simple but in reality these 2 quotes stick out loudly to me


The engine was configured and built by the cylinder head experts at Trick Flow Specialties, and uses readily available parts and requires minimal machine work.

and


We last left the 565 with the installation of the Trick Flow PowerPort® 360 cylinder heads, which had been massaged by Summit Racing/KB Racing Pro Stock driver (and diehard engine guy) Jason Line. We also bolted on the Trick Flow R-Series intake manifold for photo purposes; it was removed for a trip to the porting and polishing room for some airflow enhancements. We’ll be showing you those here

thats not a "off the shelf" company, and as I am sure you are aware Jason line is one of the quickest Pro stock drivers of all time,and spends months of each year building and dynoing his engines,they have a budget of over $100,000 each year for valve springs alone!!!!

It is a wonderfull piece of journalism though   All that money invested and they couldnt get/afford another jug of Q16 when they "ran out"


cheers richie

[dragvw2180]

And how much did it cost?

I was sitting here reading this post and chuckling to myself , with the people who were involved in this build I do not see them slapping an engine together with purely off the shelf parts. It would kind of be like saying Don Pauter just slapped one of his big block engines together with off the wall parts he had just lying around and Fumio just happened to stop by and barely clean off the ports in the heads. I think the article was a tongue in cheek build.  Mike McCarthy

[richie]

It might make the numbers built straight off the shelf, but how long will it last??

I mean, all engine builders have their tweeks they like to make to cases, cranks etc for better oiling, cooling and longevity.

That's a big point, all the parts you buy only has BIG HP potential...  They will not deliver it unless it's all combined, fitted and tweeaked right.
Or as with turbo engines, they all deliver big hp on the dyno, but unless it's built right it wont show it on the track...

It always pays of to use a experienced engine designer/builder.

Jon while i agree that it pays in the long term to get the most experienced engine builder/designer you can afford as they did in this article,that does not mean you cannot buy off the shelf parts and make them work and live,what most people seem to do is have some unrealistic idea of what they want to achieve.
If you went to a reputable engine builder in say sweden and asked him to spec an engine for you,then bought all the parts from him and did exactly as he instructed you,then you should have an engine that does exactly that,if you buy a "200hp engine" of an internet advert from someone that never actually achieved anything then the chances are it wont do what its supposed too



Now as to turbo engines not performing,well the facts are its easier to make good hp with a turbo engine,we know that  and for most on a reasonably limited budget its a great way to get good hp,you only have to look a Nikalus with his 1641 engines to see what you can achieve,can anyone or everyone do that? No,he has developed his car and engine,can someone go to him and buy that same set up,proberly.So you think that is not impressive? it made good numbers on the dyno and good numbers at the track

hell if someone wanted to go 9.23 in a cabrio with no wheelie bars i could supply the exact same combo to get it done,so if a magazine wanted to do an article on "how easy it is to go 9.23 in a cabrio beetle"  they could write it in such a way that it sounds like anyone could do it,but who would actually want to drive it? and then even if everything else is 100% correct you stilll need a track and driver good enough[insert stupid enough if you want ] to actually do it.
The problem is most dont realise how much effort it takes to get from dyno to ET,we had weeks were we tested at irwindale on a thursday,found a problem/broke something/wanted to try something different and stripped the engine,fixed or made changes and were back the next thursday at the track racing/testing again,we just dont get the luxury of that much track time in europe.
The amount of times I hear & see internet experts say "that wont work" or "you have to use that part or that person to go fast" and know from my own experiences its absolute b$llox you wouldnt believe,theres a saying that if you post it or repeat it enough it must be true   Parrots never achieved anything,well except Billy gliddens but thats another story.
    "add another kit,add another kit,add another kit"  

Where would all the engine builders come from in the future who will take our hobby further if everyone just goes to the top builders and never try anything themselves? we can even learn things from the V8 engine builds similar to the original posters quote,I read books and magazines that cover a wide range of different platforms to try to gain more knowledge to help me move forward,I know you do the same

Kettle has boiled so off to make tea,will think some more as this is an interesting topic for sure,and proberly quite contraversial if we are all honest about it



cheers richie

[MeXX]

The problem is most dont realise how much effort it takes to get from dyno to ET
cheers richie

That's all I can say.

MeXX

[Jon]

You are kicking in open doors Richie, my point was exactly that... Its fine with BIG HP, but it have to work too.

[Johannes Persson]

Hmmm, tempting topic.

/J

[richie]

Hmmm, tempting topic.

/J

Come on in then,you are already here    You have as much experience as anyone on this,you have a dyno and must have seen plenty of times when what the dyno told you didnt actually relate to the performance of the car?

You have been quiet  for a while now

cheers richie

[richie]

You are kicking in open doors Richie, my point was exactly that... Its fine with BIG HP, but it have to worn too.

Maybe I didn't understand what your point was then?  but how does someone become experienced by just going to someone else and handing over there money? we seem to agree its more than just the dynoed engine that you need, the engine builder or dyno operator wont get the car down the track,or across a continent without braking down if thats your goal,its much more than that,we all need to learn ourselves what it takes to accomplish something.

cheers richie

[dannyboy]

i was suprised by a bit of portwork on my  "cnc ported "comp eliminator heads made 22%increase in flow 

[BeetleBug]

i was suprised by a bit of portwork on my  "cnc ported "comp eliminator heads made 22%increase in flow 

I'm not suprised.

[JS]

Hmmm, tempting topic.

/J

 

[Trond Dahl]

You are kicking in open doors Richie, my point was exactly that... Its fine with BIG HP, but it have to work too.

In my opinion it is much better to use more towards off the shelf parts and achieve 80% of an engine´s potential in order to get your behind out on the track for some fun and seat time. The engine can always be upgraded/improved etc...
No need spending 3 times as much time and money and see little or no racing...

[Jon]

Seems it's hard to get the point i'm trying to make.
Back in the day when I went to regular drag racing you would alway see cars with 500 turbo horses... And they never worked.
The power was not usable... It's hard to get turbo horses to result in lower ET's ...

That can be fixed with experience...  or turning to someone who can lead you in the right direction... regarding both engine design and cluch/ chassis setup.

There are no quick ways to get the car to take full advantage of the engine, not even turbo.

In my humble opinion.

[dragvw2180]

A quote from BUSGODS;
I've read a few articles in HotVW's some time ago where they built a post order engine but it did not really reach this height in results. A guess what I'm trying to say it would be interesting to see what results would one get from parts readily available for VW scene, in one web store of course...

        This is just an example, I know there are alot of people who have more hp and better performance. I purchased all my major componants from Dave and Judy Kawell . They picked all the engine componants , built the heads, headers and intake system ,prepped all the parts and I assembled them. I wanted a combination that would do everything that I hoped for and would last more than a few passes, they exceeded all my goals.  This is a true "street " engine , something that can be driven every day in my new car . When dynoed it produced 366 rwhp on C16 fuel and boost . The last race it ran 6.37 at Farmington fall race in Pro Outlaw class in my race car. I am sure everyone is sick of seeing the vid but this is the engine running at the races, mine is the red car.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FJZrEFElU24" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/FJZrEFElU24</a>                   Richie I absolutely respect your attitude and your abilities but the sad fact is that many people do not have the resources to try alot of differant combinations and replace alot of broken parts in order to educate ourselves in what works and doesn't .  How much money do you think you have spent in the last ten years on VW's ?  I am afraid to add mine up for the last 28 years.


In my opinion it is much better to use more towards off the shelf parts and achieve 80% of an engine´s potential in order to get your behind out on the track for some fun and seat time. The engine can always be upgraded/improved etc...
No need spending 3 times as much time and money and see little or no racing...
          JHU I completely agree.      Mike McCarthy

[richie]

Richie I absolutely respect your attitude and your abilities but the sad fact is that many people do not have the resources to try alot of differant combinations and replace alot of broken parts in order to educate ourselves in what works and doesn't .  How much money do you think you have spent in the last ten years on VW's ?  I am afraid to add mine up for the last 28 years.

Mike

not enough   whatever amount it is i could always spend more

One of the reasons i have broken so much is that i try to use parts that others consider to cheap or not good enough,I always had a very small budget with the old cabrio,repairing and re using stuff that others would have thrown in the trash, no one would believe the junk that was in the engine when it went low 9s,now if I got payed a pound/dollar for every hour I spent working on it i would be a rich man Its what I enjoy doing though,and I learnt alot along the way I was lucky to have both the time and a track available to test some of my stupid ideas

There are some people in the industry that you cant go wrong using and I believe the Dave & Judy are right up there with the best,I have no personal experience with them but they did alot of good stuff for sure.



Jon, I see what you are saying and although this has gone a little off topic now,but wasn't the question can something similar be done with parts from a VW supplier to that they did in the article,and I believe it can

now would you be able to get the performance at the track to go with it?,thats another topic all together


Trond you are quite correct 80% is plenty for most and seat time can make up for the other 20%


cheers Richie

[dragvw2180]

 My motto for racing was         I have done so much with so little for so long that now I can do anything with nothing.         Cheers to you too Richie,  Mike McCarthy

[Dominick Luppino]

My son bought an off the shelf kit for his 67 build from CB Performance after talking to Pat Downs and I assembled it for my son, the add says it will make 200 HP on pump gas, well it ended up making 215HP and runs great. Here are the list of parts to make an easy 200 Hp.
1186 - 200 HP 2332cc Builders Choice Engine Kit includes:

2289 - Cam Only T-1
1274 - AS41 Dual Relief Super Case - T-1 & 2, 84 x 94, Full Flowed
2665 - Super Race Rods (Chevy Journal) 5.5" length (set of 4)
1859 - Maxi 30 Full Flow Oil Pump
1278 - CB High Performance Case Kit
1537 - 28mm Ultralight Lifters (set of
1941 - Rear Main Seal - 13, 15, & 1600cc
1804 - Main Bearings STD
2672 - Clevite Chevy Rod Bearings
1399 - Straight Cut Cam Gears
1565 - Racing Push Rod Tubes (set of
1423 - 044 Super Pro Cylinder Heads (44x37.5) 94bore
1493ug - VW650 Valve Spring Upgrade
1706 - 4 Quart Ultra Wide Glide Sump
1618 - Chromoly Push Rods - blank end (.058")
1037 - 94mm Wiseco Forged Piston Set
1038 - 94mm Mahle Cylinders
1702D - C Channel Valve Covers (set of 2)
1424 - Main Bearing Dowell Pins (set of 5)
1999 - 8mm Deflector Plates - fits 13, 15, & 1600cc (set of 2)
1904 - Case Washer Set
1255 - Rubber-Coated Cam End Plug
2673 - Super Race Crank - 84mm Stroke - Chevy Journals
1390 - 94mm 0.060' thick - Copperhead Gaskets (set of 4)
1303 - Forged Chromoly Lightweight Flywheel - 200mm (o-ring seal)
1360 - Racing Gland Nut with Washer
1229 - 8mm Chromoly Head Stud Kit - Dual Port
1849 - Racing Camshaft Bearing Set
1918 - Crankshaft Gear Assembly Kit w/Racer Spacer NO CRANK GEAR
1577 - Forged 1.4:1 Rocker Arms w/.060 Rocker Shims
1362 - End Play Shim Kit
1908 - Case Lock Nut Kit
1973 - Gasket Set - 13, 15, & 1600cc Dual & Single Port Engines
1094 - 94mm x .145" Steel Barrel Spacers
LABOR-CC-CS - CC Heads to 52cc
LABOR-FLOW - Full Flow Case

HP rating is based on Dual 48mm IDA Carbs, 1 3/4" Merged Exhaust (#3597), match ported big beef manifolds, compression is set at 10.5:1 using listed parts in kit. Premium fuel is required for this kit.

[Frallan]

Maybe we should separate the topic how much horsepower and how to make it with off shelf parts or not and making good ET?
They both deserve attention but are pretty much apart.
Horespower is so often debated but how often do we share what skills it takes to do the rest.
Car setup and choice?
Understand what a clutch should do?
Then as a absolutely very separate and key topic, how shoudl I behave when on the line. This is probably where a lot of people lose much ET. Or even fail totally.

I am not tired of watching your video Mike, so I did it again. Seen it several times before.
My reflection was linked to how you perfrom with 366 hp. A  6.37. Very good!

You have a good car with a good setup and that is so much more involved than just HP.
Then you do a simple clean Burnout. No overrev, no pumping, no funny stuff.
You stage short and clean. No hesitation on knowing what you are up to.
At a good and right moment you raise the rpm and keep it there because this is what you set it at and decided to start on. (maybe you have a llimiter or just know how to drive without it)
Then you have a completely clean run.
As usual with any sport, it looks so simple when it is "clean".

[Frallan]

        Mike McCarthy
[/quote]

Mike, you have a RLR Rev 6, so you do not do much of burnout and just clean of the tires? Correct?

[dragvw2180]

Dom , perfect example of what can be done.  Frallen, Thank you for all that.  I do leave on a 2 step set at 5600 rpm's  and yes I do run a REV6 with NO burnout.  Mike McCarthy

[richie]

  and yes I do run a REV6 with NO burnout.  Mike McCarthy

I have to admit that scares the hell out of me,its all good and well that the car launches well with no burnout using that clutch,in the 1/8 mile its proberly ok,but what a big hp car is going to do down the track with cold tyres just seems so dangerous ?

cheers Richie

[dragvw2180]

Richie the only time I ever had any problems on the top end in this car was in that video . The night before they had a NITROS shoot out race  ( american v8's) and alot of engine explosions. They worked on the track all night long , I was a spectator. The next day was our race and the sun heated the track , oil came to the surface on the top end. If you watch really close you can see my tires smoke just when I made  the shift to 4th . The next race was at Farmington and with no changes it was perfect handling. Like you said if I was running 1/4 I might have problems that I  haven't had running the 1/8th . Mike McCarthy

[busgods]

For a moment I thought I would apologize for the poorly picked headline for this post but the further I read the conversation I changed my mind!  Fantastic points by all and a good point about the quality of workmanship used on the V8 build. It would be interesting to hear what the price tag for that consultation was.  And some of that was paid by the summit stuff I've bought over the years...   

It's great to hear Dominic that you've had some good results with the CB's builders choice kit. I've wandered if anyone's double backed the results. Did you tweak the kit in any way? There's only one thing that bugs me about these kits. They say it's "taking away all the guess work". But hey, that's the best part!!! 

[richie]

For a moment I thought I would apologize for the poorly picked headline for this post but the further I read the conversation I changed my mind!  Fantastic points by all and a good point about the quality of workmanship used on the V8 build. It would be interesting to hear what the price tag for that consultation was.  And some of that was paid by the summit stuff I've bought over the years...   

It's great to hear Dominic that you've had some good results with the CB's builders choice kit. I've wandered if anyone's double backed the results. Did you tweak the kit in any way? There's only one thing that bugs me about these kits. They say it's "taking away all the guess work". But hey, that's the best part!!! 

And of course Jason line is sponsored by summit so wouldnt really want to bash there products

cheers richie