The SPG Roller Bearing Crank thread/My 2180cc ENGINE :)

[Lee.C]

Quote from Gary's Email:

"Pictures of the parts. This will be a couple of emails because of the sizes of the pictures. Let me know is there is anything else you want to add. Sorry this took so long to put together. Oh as far as the engine we are currently testing. I found the back up engine I had for the old race car Lil Snort. Funny found it in a couple of old boxes marked playboy magazines. It is complete heads and all from the 70’s. The guys in the shop finally convinced me to put it together and dyno it just to see what it could do. We opened it up from the 88 it had in it and put in some 94 Mahle’s. It hit 220 hp not bad for a 82 roller and 94 mm. The 94”s are the only part that was new. It has Hilborn injection on pump gas. You remember that blue sedan I sent you the pictures. Might put it in that just to see what it could do?? I might just sell the engine as it is seeing it is from the 70’s don’t really know yet. Need a buyer. I found a heavy duty tote that I used as a crate and separated all the parts so as they will not hurt each other. Lee please remember the key to keep the roller alive and healthy is a large oil pump. Make sure you have good oil pressure and it will keep the rods from going dry. And always when changing the main bearings be sure they are cut properly so they squirt oil to keep the rods lubricated"

" Also the roller is really dry due to the time it was resting. It would be best to soak it in a 5 gallon can of new solvent then blown dry and oiled. Always store it standing up"

"Flywheel is 12 lbs. Best at that weight with the rollers. I would use 30 weight for around town and 50 weight in racing. If it is really cold use the 30 for racing. DO NOT USE THE SYNETIC OILS. THEY DO NOT FAIR WELL IN AIR COOLED MACHINES. Like I said the most important part is lots of oil pressure. That is the key so a big oil pump like an old DDS pump. They work great."

So is anyone one interested in buying that engine Gary mentions 

[Lee.C]

Here you go Zach....... And some other stuff worth thinking about 

"82 rollers weigh 36 lbs and normal 82 weighs 20 lbs and rods are 1 1/2 pounds each so a total of 26 lbs. One thing to remember is drag and weight coefficient. The weight actually starts working for ya when the RPM are up. You will notice the roller actually revs at a slower rate but it is smoother and stays revved for a longer time. The SPG is the reason back in the late 60’s we learned how to wedge mate. Lots of tork on the flywheel end. That is why the dirt track guys liked them back then and to today still run rollers. Higher revs with a lower drag coefficient makes for a longer hp range. Understand?

Cold starts.. Always let it warm up a bit especially in cold weather.

Starting from hot no problem as long as you have 30 lbs of oil pressure at idle.

Oil change every 3,000 miles or 6 months. Why 6 months? Condensation builds up in the oil. Remember in complete combustion water is formed. Just look at any exhaust pipe you will often see water dripping out. This water eventually works its way into the crank case.

Running temps has nothing to do with the roller if set up correct. It is all how the fan and airflow and timing is set up. You can burn a motor down if the timing is retarded to much. It is actually pushing the piston down before it reaches TDC. Also if the oil cooler is mounted in a dead area space it can raise oil temps. Personally I like to see 180 to 200. 220 is acceptable but not for long periods of time. If you are constantly running 220+ start looking for ways to correct it for it will drain the life out of the engine. A 10 1/2 combustion engine will live half as long as a 9 1/2 engine and a 8 1/2 engine will live twice as long. Understand? Also there is no substitute for CC’s. CC are the cheapest way to build horsepower.

Funny thing you asked. A long time ago an old timer told me I was wrong calling and engine a motor. He reminded me a engine is an internal combustion machine and a motor is an electrical magnet. I guess that makes the magneto a motor. Right? Well I have remembered that for some 40 years and get a chuckle every time someone calls a engine a motor. Everybody does it. I was just talking to Paul Schley the other day (Lighting Bug) and he was calling the engine a motor.... Just one of those things we take for granted.. There are tons of things that I could tell ya but there is one that should be understood to save money. Just a little rolling start saves you $$$ Dropping the clutch will eventually twist or break something. Also a trick for big motors if you are on a budget is a 6 volt starter with a 200 gear. That way you can spin the engine (motor) quicker for a faster start. Back in the day before these new starters we all ran 6 volt starter (motors) on a 12 volt system. Also when you are running a magneto it actually needs to run over 2,500 rpm to compensate for the drag. Rule of thumb keep it cool and keep yourself cool.... Or what we used to say “run cool look cool run hot you will stop!”

I saw a large pump DDS oil pump on Samba for $150.00 Not a great price but a good one is worth it. Make sure he has the O ring gasket that goes in-between the pump housing and the cover. If not offer him 25.00 less. Oh also 48 IDA’s  look really cool but actually 44 run better for the street and are much easier to keep in tune."

[Ron Greiner]

Roller cranks came with 5.354" Porsche length rods

[Lee.C]

Cool thanks buddy, Always good to have more info...... 

Quite "Short" rods...

 

[Zach Gomulka]

Roller cranks came with 5.354" Porsche length rods

That was my next question! Even the stock stroke cranks? Or just the strokers?

10lb weight increase doesn't sound bad. A chopped standard flywheel and AL pressure plate can easily make up for that.

It does sound like a lot of extra hassle and cost though. But I'm glad someone is still up for it

[Lee.C]

No need to tell me about the COST.......

I have over $2500.00 in the Crank/flywheel/clutch etc

I am soooooooo looking forward to getting al these parts together in one place (with Ian!)

 

[Lee.C]

Can anyone help with this???

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,22097.0.html

[Zach Gomulka]

Contact Fritter...

[Lee.C]

Contact Fritter...

Thanks dude PM & Email sent 

[Lids]

Lee, just a little question ( and yes i do get it)

Why don't you run a berg blueprinted pump and cover?  these were around back in the day.  They come with 30mm gears so will supply more than enough pressure.

What is the difference between a deano pump and GB pump?  Apart from the name.  Serious question.

With so much invested I also wonder why you don't think about a DDS dry sump!

[Lee.C]

Lee, just a little question ( and yes i do get it)

Why don't you run a berg blueprinted pump and cover?  these were around back in the day.  They come with 30mm gears so will supply more than enough pressure.

What is the difference between a deano pump and GB pump?  Apart from the name.  Serious question.

With so much invested I also wonder why you don't think about a DDS dry sump!

Fair point well made......

I'll be honest the ONLY reason I'm thinking of a DDS flow-flow pump is because Gary recomended it.....

I will see what Gary says about the "Dry-Sump" idea..... I have thought of it but my thinking was that there would be more
"Splash-Lubrication" with the normal "wet-sump" set up    

[Zach Gomulka]

DDS ones are really huge, 36mm.

[Lids]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1489539

[Lee.C]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1489539

Yeah I know I've seen it 

I am still waiting to hear from Gary on this one.....

BUT as I have been discussing with another member, In my mind NoS means BOXED/WRAPPED ie NEW!!

Especially when we are taking about OIL PUMPS!

[Lee.C]

Well here is what Gary says Lids....

OK now for the question. The twin cam Porsche had a roller back in the late 1950’s which had a dry sump system so I am sure Porsche felt it was ok to run a dry sump. I personally feel it is a bit of overkill to say the least. The one most important thing is to have lots of oil pressure. When adding external coolers and dry sump systems oil pressure actually is affected because now the distance the pump has to deliver has expanded to other areas other than the galleys of the case. Kind of like adding on another length of hose on the water supply. Sure the water will get there but it has to travel a lot farther to get there and some actual pressure is lost. Understand?? Also when adding a dry sump system there are lines that can leak (or blow off) that can cause all kinds of problems. Unless you were going to place this engine into a dune buggy that does a lot of down hill running I would suggest against it. Just don’t need it and why have another thing that can cause a headache. What I would suggest is a large pump, a wind-age tray, and a quality extra oil sump bolted to the bottom of the case to add oil capacity.

Things to think about.... Your roller is only oiled from the mains. Your main bearings have been modified to (squirt) oil through the holes in the crank to the rods. Look at the crank. The two large weights have holes in them. They have two purposes. One is to aid in the pressing of the crank apart and back together but the most important purpose is the mains squirt the oil out through those holes to the rods. Some oil pressure on the mains is sacrificed to supply this squirt to the rods. Personally I would not want to lower that pressure to going to other devises. You already are going to an external oil cooler and filter why take the chance going to another oil supply. Understand? Sure we have put dry sump systems but only on a dune buggy that is subject to a lot of down hill running that washes away the oil from the pump pickup/pump housing area. I must add here that we do add dry sump systems to our roller engines that go into small aircraft but then again you are probably not planning to go upside down.... Right?? Just trying to be funny here!! Another saying “Keeping it simple keeps it fun.”

[Lee.C]

AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After approx 8/9 years and approx £1800+ I finally have my FULLY rebuilt/modified SPG Roller Crank IN MY HANDS!!!!

Along with a set of modified main bearings, A Lightened/balanced/wedgemated flywheel, Kennedy clutch, Engle 130 & magnum straight cut timing gear......

And in a few weeks it all gets handed over to Mr Clarke at Wolfburg Perfomance Services, Then hopefully by the time EBI 6 rolls around I will have a nice new engine for the 65...... I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[leec]

Bet that feels good after all that time
What's the spec of the rest of the motor? Gearbox?
Lee

[Lee.C]

Bet that feels good after all that time
What's the spec of the rest of the motor? Gearbox?
Lee

Yeah I just keep holding it a looking at it..... Its such a nice piece of engineering 

The basic are:
- 82x92
- 11.8:1 CR
- Engle 130
- Magneto
- 48ida's
- Oldskool heads (Unknown make/model/porter???)

I will know more "Details" once I have visited Ian and dropped all this to him...... I know he likes the heads 

[leec]

11.8:1, street engine?
Lee

[Lee.C]

As for the Gearbox..... I have a  Quaife LSD (see pic) and I am "Thinkin" I'll start with a "GT Box/Ratio's" with a slight Longer First Gear to make use of all those RPM and a Slighty shorter 4th......

Any input on the gearbox side would be GREAT  

[Lee.C]

11.8:1, street engine?
Lee

Ian seems to think it will be ok.... its what the head cc works out to, I did think it was a little high but Ian assure me its "Streetable" 

[Zach Gomulka]

IMO, If the car is staying stock weight, and you wish to road trip it, stock 4.12 gearing is best.

[Lee.C]

Cheers Zach.... Not really planning on "Road-Trippin" this motor much, Just driving to and from the track and a bit of Street Racing 

Any other thoughts 

[Zach Gomulka]

Unless it's really light, stay 4.12 on the R&P. The car will feel more urgent, willing to take off. Full interior, street car? Do you have ET goals? How far is the track? Drive to EBI again maybe?

[.]

 Do not run high compression ratios with the roller- bearing cranks as the aluminum cages for the rollers will deform !

[Lee.C]

Well I did discuss CR with Gary and he didn't see any problems......

And thanks for the input Zach..... I have no real "Plans" for this motor, if I do go long distance then I'll A frame the 65 behind the Bus

The most I would probably drive at one time would be 80-100kms..... Maybe a little more, And take it out for a thrash in the evenings/sundays.....Thats "Streetable" enough for me 

I don't want to get tooooooo hung up on details as I am leaving most of the finer details to Ian (Thats what I am paying for!)

I know he has run 11.something CR's in his cars/engines that have seen alot of "Street use" inc EBI & back in his split......

I was hoping he might drop in on this thread.......

[Lee.C]

I did pick this up......

[Zach Gomulka]

Non doghouse?

To each their own, but IMO those things are ugly. And definitely not period correct cal look (which I assume is what you're after).

[Lee.C]

It will be "Dog-house by the time I'm (matt Keene) is finished with it...... Also gonna remove the heater outlets

I just like the look of something slightly different, I also prefer the "Flat" look to the top of the housing.....

[JS]

Why not run only an external cooler and keep the shroud as it is?