Queries bunch of old school stuff Possibly Sauer & Sohn.

[benlawrence]

I was up at my friend daves workshop this morning and a customer bought up a box full of parts, my camera had no battery so unfortunately didnt manage to get pics, however a few things were in the box that were interesting, allegedly this was an old hill climb engine.

the heads were stock castings unwelded and 40 x 35 valves, the ports were heavily reworked sharp D shape single sprung and what looked like aluminium retainers, the port work was very nice and reminiscent of an older design and older port job, the chambers had also been semi hemi'd.

The manifolds were very tall, they were branded "SS" down near the bottom of the intake runners and were topped with a pair of dual bbl solex in very good condition, these no doubt old porsche carbs.

There was a dry sump pump that looked fairly old too.

Also in the bag of parts was an spg roller bearing crank, this measured out at 64mm (1200 stroke) were these available??

A german camshaft of unknown spec, the numbers on it were none i'd ever seen and "made in germany" on the casting it was  5 or 6 bolt.

The pistons were 92's and inside they were cast with "NPR DEANO"  with 2mm top and secondary rings.

Nice bunch of old school stuff, quite what he's going to do with it i dont know, but can anyone shed any light on the origins of some of the parts (without pics)

Looks like this was a nice little 1700 motor back in its day.

[restojohnny]

Sound's like an old Sauer & Sons ralley motor to me. I had the same carb set up with the porsche carbs here's a picture of them [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]

[benlawrence]

Hey Johnny thanks for the reply, the customer was keen to know the origins of the engine which he's had boxed in bits for years, the carbs aren't the same, i think they are the 40 p11's and the manifolds are a lot like a skat trak only they look a bit taller not like the ones you have , the logo on the manifold is the same for sure, when i'm up next week ill get some pictures.

[benlawrence]

Wow, johnny i just did a quick bit of searching on the net and found some info on Sauer, it definately looks like their kit.





the filters are identical. and these are the manifolds for sure.



The heads are interesting, exactly the same port shape, but they do not have the fins cut through the centre, this may answer the question to another thread that was on here a while ago, someone was trying to identify some heads which looked exactly the same.

[Jim Gillum Racing]

That must have been one bad dog engine in it's day.

[Deanodynosaurs]

Let me know if he wants to move those old NPR pistons on! 

Dude 

[restojohnny]

Yes I had a complete sauer & sons ralley motor but sold it. I kept the valve cover's also but then later traded it for some more empi item's   Oh yeah did ya get the motor yet. I'm curious to see pic's 

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[benlawrence]

Ill be up next week and get some pictures, those covers are lovely, i spoke to my friend today who has it, i dont think the customer knows exactly what this kit is, neither did i to be honest, i'd never seen or heard of Sauer until now. The heads are in decent shape although one head has either seen a valve drop or foreign object in the chamber at some point but nothing that cant be freshened up, i would say going by the catalogue picture, they are most certainly Sauer, as are the manifolds and solex pII kit. there is a power pulley too which looks pretty much bang on to the one in the catalogue, the dry sump system, im not so sure, its a 3 gear system driven off the end of the cam but looks as if it could be a later addition but on reading, Sauer did in fact make a 3 gear system so who knows, it has a hosed connection from the sump plate. Dave measured the crank and its definately 64mm stroke, which would bring it in at 1702cc, i know nothing about roller cranks other that the info gleaned from here, we dont know anyone in ireland who knows these cranks!!, sadly it has grabbed the centre main at some time in its life, probably why it was sold as a box of bits, the centre saddle has had its dowel dragged round it and has also spread the case, so its junk, it was an early case too 10mm non deepstud. i would love to see it built back into the sum of its parts, but cost will probably be a serious contender here as to what gets used (if any) and what gets put on the shelf or possibly moved on.

[restojohnny]

Do you know Martin Murray ? He's an old friend of mine and he lives in Ireland........ I bet he might know something about the crank 

[benlawrence]

I know of Martin yes, Dave knows him well, maybe worth a call 

[Lee.C]

Hmmmm very interesting.....

I am guessing you have seen this thread about SPG's
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,22058.0.html

I know they did do a 64mm 

[rick m]

Notice the shape of the combustion chambers - open chamber.

Rick Mortensen

[benlawrence]

Well the plot thickens, it turns out that the crank is an 82mm roller. A lot of the parts now seem to tally with what i can vaguely decipher from the SS brochure from 1976.



many calls and emails back and forth have resulted in the possibility of the customer rebuilding this engine, i think this would be fantastic!!!!

i will be up next week and we will go through all the parts that are present and i will photograph them in detail, anyone with experience with these old engines, it would be great if you could chime in with any info or stories r.e Sauer rally engines.

 

[Neil Davies]

If I remember right, Ole Endler with the Pink Panther knows a decent amount about these old Sauer and Sohn parts. Worth sending him a message?

[benlawrence]

Ok so i managed to get some time to take some pictures, the crank is away being checked, as you can see nothing has been cleaned and inspected yet, its just as it came in the box. I think we can safely say the manifolds are Sauer items.

[benlawrence]

[Ole]

Thanks for posting the pictures, this is indeed a great bunch of old school stuff!

I had a lot of Sauer und Sohn stuff over the years. Believe it or not, the company still exists to this day, but they are into industrial engines today.



The cam appears to be a Schleicher Ro 158, I had these cams in several street engines. What I haven't seen before is the 5 bolt connection to the cam gear. Probably it's an early version, I only know of the (late) 4 bolt connection.
The oil pump looks like something homegrown. I like the way it was machined to get the clearance to the pulley. The common Sauer and Sohn setup would use a stock (double) oil pump of the automatic stick shift. The second pump gets the oil from the pick up at the sump plate to feed the oil cooler. The return line ends in the left valve cover. Of course this described setup is a bypass system, only very few companies offered drysump systems back then. Most of them were handcrafted, I've seen dozens of different drysump oilpumps for VWs.

The most complete collection of information about German oldschool performance stuff for VWs is this website:

http://www.kaeferfriseure.de/index.php

If you use the left dropdown menu "Friseure" and select "Sauer und Sohn" you'll find a lot information about the company ( in german...). In the download section you can see many cataloges and brochures of different companies including Sauer und Sohn. If you have trouble with translation from German don't hesitate and drop me a line via PM.

Saludos,

Ole

[Zach Gomulka]

What I haven't seen before is the 5 bolt connection to the cam gear. Probably it's an early version, I only know of the (late) 4 bolt connection.

Check again, it's 6 bolt, or rather 6 rivet. Stock drilled for 3 extra holes? I suppose they were concerned it could come apart?

[Ole]

What I haven't seen before is the 5 bolt connection to the cam gear. Probably it's an early version, I only know of the (late) 4 bolt connection.

Check again, it's 6 bolt, or rather 6 rivet. Stock drilled for 3 extra holes? I suppose they were concerned it could come apart?

Ohhps, of course you're right...   

Yes, three extra rivets could be the answer. There has been an early version of the Schleicher Ro 158, same duration but different overlap to the late version.

Ole

[benlawrence]

Ole, thanks so much for the info, when i get a spare hour or so i will have a look at the link you shared.

I was just about to get started on the solex's this evening and drop them into the bath, i hit the first snag, one spray bar is missing, i think im going to have fun trying to track one of those down!!!!!!

[morkrieger]

 

If it's any help:

I had about the same 'style' heads on the Superflow Flowbench 2 years ago.
Salvaged from an autocross scrap 1600cc engine that supposedly did 'about 160bhp @ 7K+'

No valve guide left in the port, valve springs had nothing left in pressure.

I had the flow #'s on my desk, scribbled on a paper still :

Inch valve lift   flow @ 10" H2O        upscaled to 25" H2O    
0.1                      28                           44
0.2                      32                           82
0.3                      73                           115
0.4                      85                           134
0.5                      93                           146

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[benlawrence]

they look like theyve had a hard life, theres barely any valve guides left in these ones, they are cut all the way back flush with the ports,  so do you guys think they are Sauer heads??

[Ole]

...  so do you guys think they are Sauer heads??

It's hard to say, if not impossible.

About 20 years ago a friend of mine purchased a '49 bug on a late 60's floorpan. It got the "full treatment" in the late 70's somewhere in Germany. Lowered to the max, two Scheel bucket seats, 1600cc Type 1 with 46IDAs, heads similar to the shown above, the cam was supposed to come from a Formula Vee. We were told it had "way more than 120 horses". We put it back into service after more than 10 years sitting in a shop. After the first testdrive we were quite disappointed about it's poor performance. We double checked everything but it didn't get much better. We took the engine apart just to find out that the #3/4 side had a compression of about 11:1 while the #1/2 side had just 8.5:1... Seems like somebody put on a copy to replace a fatal damaged head without the necessary know how.

What I want to say is these heads sure could be Sauer heads, at the same time they could be copies of a proven head design. Either way they are the real oldschool deal, especially in combination with the other parts. I'd check them and use them as they are if possible.

If you have trouble finding the correct spray bar let me know, I might can help.

Saludos,

Ole

[Sarge]

I was just about to get started on the solex's this evening and drop them into the bath, i hit the first snag, one spray bar is missing, i think im going to have fun trying to track one of those down!!!!!!

Hopefully your "bath" is not full-on carb cleaner.  You have late style 40P11's with the throttle shaft adjusters that have a tiny block of rubberized material that the adjustment screw works against.
Carb cleaner eats those up real quick... I have experience   Early 40P11's have solid throttle shafts; much easier to deal with.  Good luck!

[caddy]

I'm working on this project with Ben Lawrence.

we got the crank back from the grinders , it has cleaned up ok .
when we received the crank no1 main was standard size no2,3,4 were down 2 sizes 0.5mm.
the crank was checked for straightness and was spot on.
then no2'3;4 just needed 1/2 thou polish and no1 was taken down 2 sizes to match.

[benlawrence]

I was just about to get started on the solex's this evening and drop them into the bath, i hit the first snag, one spray bar is missing, i think im going to have fun trying to track one of those down!!!!!!

Hopefully your "bath" is not full-on carb cleaner.  You have late style 40P11's with the throttle shaft adjusters that have a tiny block of rubberized material that the adjustment screw works against.
Carb cleaner eats those up real quick... I have experience  Early 40P11's have solid throttle shafts; much easier to deal with.  Good luck!

Its an ultrasonic bath, and yes the years have beaten me to it, those nylon blocks are away to nothing, dave will either make some new or i can get a pair from stoddard porsche cheap enough, the first thing i looked at before i put them in to soak was how the throttle shaft action was doing and any play in the shafts, then i noticed the butterflies opening unevenly and took one look at the split shaft and bingo.  Theres some work to do to these carbs, i am still on the lookout for a spray bar (with the screw that holds these in place) but they are definately serviceable. I kinda like the split shaft design.

[Zündfunke]

Nice Topic!
Sauer&Sohn is a company which still exists about 30 miles away from my hometown.
I´m collecting parts for a S&S engine at the time.
No serious horse power...something around 70PS maybe. Not all off the heads had the S&S D-Port back in the days. The "Street Engines" for customers with the NDIX carbs used to have only minor changes to the heads.
But still ... they made some cool engines back in the days.

Even here in germany their parts are not easy to find anymore! Most often you see their exhausts for sale. Those buddies didn´t do a thing for additional horsepower. And they are not a beauty! 

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[richie]

That's some cool stuff Ben, it would be nice to see it live again  

 I have some Sauer & Sohn IDA manifolds, same port shape as those pII manifolds, but have not seen much other stuff from them around

cheers Richie

[caddy]

can anyone give me details of the bearing mods for the spg crank ?

I have found a few photo's on the web of the no1 and 3 oil grove , is there a mod to be done to the no2 split centre main ?

[Lee.C]

Gary did a set for mine...

Try dropping him an email....

Gary Holznecht -  ghglass@sbcglobal.net