Lickity Split

[hotstreetvw]

Awesome setup again.  10.41 is amazing.  I'm still struggling with how it splits into the throttle body.  I though the v in the inner oiler outlet was for each bank.  Do you have any pictures of it when you were building it?

[richie]

Under decklid set up from brazil, pictures from hotcampinas.com

[hotstreetvw]

Nice.  I like your setup Richie.  How do you plan on running a oil cooler on the 4" engine?

[Chip]

For what it's worth, I don't have a cooler in my shroud. I just run an external cooler after my filter. Not a big deal at all.

[hotstreetvw]

Thanks Chip, where is your cooler mounted?

For the 4" motor I planned to mount a mocal type cooler and fan above the transaxle.  If I went turbo, I really doubt I could squeeze the turbo under the apron.  This one is a tight fit with the 1" trans raise.  I like the turbo location Richie runs, same with the autocraft oval engine I posted, but it wouldn't leave room for a external cooler over the trans.  I've seen coolers mounted low, between the frame horn and spring plate, but I also have a narrowed torsion housing, so rules that out.

[BeetleBug]

Under decklid set up from brazil, pictures from hotcampinas.com

Dam, that is a lot of work! Any updates from the dyno the car sits on?

Best rgs
-BB-

[hotstreetvw]

Figured it out. 

[Chip]

Thanks Chip, where is your cooler mounted?

For the 4" motor I planned to mount a mocal type cooler and fan above the transaxle.  If I went turbo, I really doubt I could squeeze the turbo under the apron.  This one is a tight fit with the 1" trans raise.  I like the turbo location Richie runs, same with the autocraft oval engine I posted, but it wouldn't leave room for a external cooler over the trans.  I've seen coolers mounted low, between the frame horn and spring plate, but I also have a narrowed torsion housing, so rules that out.

Mine is between the spring plate and the frame horn, against the torsion housing. You definitely have a challenge with that one. Having the firewall and such gone must provide a little extra space though. Gotta room in there somewhere.

[Neil Davies]

Just e-mailed you a photo of the back of my car with the oil cooler position. It sits above the gearbox off to the left, mounted off the cage and under the aluminium firewall box.

[hotstreetvw]

Thanks Neil.  Looks good.

[hotstreetvw]

and have been leaning a little more toward a turbo EFI with E85.

If this is on the table, why would you go any other way?

I guess what's put me on the fence is the stories I've read about running out of fuel with e85 and IDAs.  Also, if I I cant get to 12.5:1 ish, the big cam will be really lazy at this altitude.  That means cutting the heads from 65cc down.  Which will be difficult to overcome if I went turbo in the future.  There is also the duplication of parts if I changed. Pistons, pockets vs dish ($600-800), roller cam ($500).

What my fear is, going turbo and working through the learning curve on the big motor.  This is part of the reason I'm working on this STF engine and stalling progress on the 4" engine.  I just sold my 48 dells, I'll hang onto my 51.5s if needed  I'm planning on buying Jenvey 45mm IDF throttle bodies to run on this STF 2275 turbo.  They might be a little big, but about perfect for the 4 " engine.

[richie]

I'm planning on buying Jenvey 45mm IDF throttle bodies to run on this STF 2275 turbo.  They might be a little big, but about perfect for the 4 " engine.

Just my opinion but they are to small for the  2276 even and way to small for the 4inch engine, I have 50mm jenveys on my 2276 and it drives great even low down. Its nothing like driving an engine on carbs

On the E85 thing I would guesstimate that with the opened up float bowl, good size needle and seat IDAs would be ok up to about 250hp on E85, but every engines needs are different

cheers Richie

[hotstreetvw]

Do you think the 45s would be to small with a turbo?

[Stripped66]

Do you think the 45s would be to small with a turbo?

Certainly not for the 2276, but why not run a single TB instead?

[hotstreetvw]

That is definitely on the table,  I'm just looking at the pros/cons of the two types of systems.

If you consider the two systems, the IR setup has ~10"  of intake below the throttle plate at low pressure, the remainder of the system is at atmospheric pressure (no boost).  As the throttle is opened, atm pressure and air density is waiting for the cylinders, resulting in much better response.  With a single throttle body, everything below the throttle plate is at low pressure, due to the opposing cylinders, this can be a substantial volume if the runners are large enough to support the HP.  It takes time for that air to move and the air density to increase.  That's not to say the single throttle body doesn't work well for drag racing.  Most guys are open throttle and on the two step when launching and the full intake tract is already at atm pressure, or even positive pressure.

The Jenvey site says a 45mm throttle plate is enough to support 65hp, so 260 in total (enough for the power level of my 4" engine NA).  However, they also say at 9000rpm.  My thoughts are small high frequency breaths vs large low frequency breaths.  So a motor turning lower rpm will require a larger TB to support the power level.  I think you and Richie are right about the 45s being too small.

My thoughts were along the lines of 45mm throttle bodies, 2" x .065 wall (47.5mm ID) runners converg into a 2.5 x .065" wall section, then y-pipe to the turbo.  Asuming a larger TBs are required, some of the pipe diameters would need to change as well.

I had one of my guys sketch this up, this would be from one throttle body top toward the y-pipe.



Finally got half the case deburred and polished (so many sharp edges).  The inside is finished off with 320 cartridge wheel and wd40.  Had to put some stuff together to keep the blood flowing.  The second half is to come.  It needs a little spot welded on the top of the case that got very thin during machining.

[hotstreetvw]

Made it home over Christmas and fetched this out of my father-in-laws garage.  I left it with him when we moved to Denver over a year ago.  My father-in-law had a 05 C6 vette w/ LS2, E-Force supercharger, made 476 hp to the wheels and I think he enjoyed driving the scab more!  He was upset to see it go.

It needs new gates, and the paint work needs to be finished.  I'm looking forward to driving it this spring.



And an idea of what I started with.


Lots of pictures of the build here.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/86_ski_nautique/page2

[modnrod]

Thanks for the link! The notch is cool, so many details, like the engine bay air intake screens.
 

[hotstreetvw]

The notch was cool.  It sat idle when the single cab project started.  I just couldn't ever get back into it.  I sold it to Chad Schley(Schley Bros fame), then bought the split 6-8 months later.

Last I saw the notch it was getting a custom Mendola suspension
http://www.coolrydescustoms.com/past-builds.html

[hotstreetvw]

Happy New Years!

I spent some time in the garage today, boy was it cold.  5 degrees this morning, 20 throughout the day.

I am working on the STF turbo engines intakes.  These are the welded IDF intakes (sold the dells) with some spare CB air filter bases (not setup for linkage).  Not sure where the bases came from but I've been moving them around every few years, time to put the to use.  I tacked the base to the manifold, opened up the runners to match the intakes, welded the seam in the runner to seal them, then ground a radius.  The plan is to run CB pressure covers, 2" tubing and get the intake sorted out.  Any recommendations on a throttle body?  Preferably without a lot of BS hanging off it.

[modnrod]

Perfect! Cheap, short, big enough, simple..........

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Buick-Regal-Throttle-Body/33558/bn_1337602/i.html

[spoolin70]

Happy new year, good progress your making

Nice work on the CB bases. I used them on my last engine and remember them being a little rough. Something you may want to fix with the pressure covers, the 2 studs to secure them in place are good for only around 1 bar of boost. At 18psi mine started to lift and the gasket moved around.

A thicker gasket and 2 extra mounting studs were used to spread the load and they held firm no problem. Or I guess you could just weld them to the bases 

Good luck
Darren

[hotstreetvw]

Made it to the local pick a part.  I walked isles looking for the right one, pulled one from a Buick, a To#¤ta, a Nissan and finally a Subaru.  I figured the subby was our flat four brother, so went that direction.  

This if off a legacy, 2.5 liter.



After an altercation with the band saw.  I tapped the idle air port for 3/8" NPT.  It has a temp fitting, I need to pickup a plug and shape it to match the ID.  I kept all the BS linkage, once it's mounted I can figure out what will work or needs to be modified.  Hoping to cut the shaft down quite a bit.

[Chip]

Looks good! That TB should be just fine, though you might have liked the idle valve, not to say you can't add something later. Good choice on the new cam too. I had one that was pretty similar and the car made very impressive power on the street. Never had it on a dyno or the track, but the worn out tires were proof enough 

[hotstreetvw]

Thanks Chip.  It's a 60mm; I think it should be plenty.  I debated over the IAC, but decided to take it off to reduce its foot print.  I guess I can always add a IAC through the 3/8 NPT fitting and mount it remotely.  I never ran one on my previous MS install.  Have you found it to be beneficial or required?

And so everyone knows, I ordered a 86b on 112LC.  Hope it's enough.  I can steal my 1.4s (.537 lift) from the 2275 I ran this year, or borrow the 1.5s (.575 lift) I have for the 4" engine.  Any recommendations?  I'm planning on a valve job on the AJ heads and some CB 650 springs.

I measured deck tonight, it needs about a .020-.030 shim to be zero.  I was planning on .060 gaskets which puts the compression around 9.1:1.  Maybe a little high, but maybe ok for the altitude (5800').

Chip mentioned Vegas was cancelled for 2016.  That is disappointing.

[Chip]

60 should be just fine. I think mine is 50 or so. Works fine too. I have run pwm idle valves, in this car in the past. One I loved(bosch 2 wire), one I hated(Ford), I ran the bosch on my first version Mexican injection based setup. It was responsive and easy to tune. I had nothing but trouble with the ford one that came with the current TB. I have managed to not need it for a few years, but will run a bosch next spring. Its on the to do list for the winter upgrades.

I'd say just stick with the 1.4s. You should be easy capable of making 11s or better power with that combo I'd think.

[hotstreetvw]

Update on my projects,

2275T STF - Heads are at the shop getting a valve job, exhaust valves replaced and the 650 springs installed.  Waiting on the 86b.  I finished clearancing the engine case for the crank and rods, mocked up the deck height to flush with .030" shims (I will be running .060" gaskets).  Rings gapped.   I'll need to mock up the cam, rods and clear as needed.

2724 - deciding on valve springs.  The pocket on the MS230s is cut for Chevy springs (1.460") diameter and they have T4 valves.  After looking through k-motion, PSI, comp cams, etc, I found the CB Pro 850 springs and am considering running them.  1.440" diameter, 300lbs @ 1.800", 800lbs @ 1.000", coil bind at .930, they look stout.  The info I've read from DonP is that there is little downside to running too much spring pressure with a roller cam.  I also talked to PatD at CB and he said to shim them to .050" from bind and let the pressures be what they are.

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1473

Repaired the little break through on the TF1.  I guess there was a tool offset issue that cause it to become paper thin.the casting didn't weld real well, but good enough I suppose.  I cleaned it up with a die grinder and cartridge roll.

[Stripped66]

What duration and lift are you running on the roller cam? 48mm intake valves in your MS230's?

[hotstreetvw]

48s yes.  I haven't decided on the cam yet.  I was hoping for .600-.650 lift, somewhere in the ball park of 270-280 degrees at .050.  If I go NA, which it's looking like will be the case more and more.  I'm at the point I want this done, then maybe revisit in a few years.

Do you have any recommendations for a cam?

[hotstreetvw]

Cam is ordered.  Valve springs showed up today, along with a set of CB titanium retainers.  So here's the great part, the retainers have such a large ID, they will not work with standard vw T4 valves/keeper (three groove).  So now I get to buy new valves (race master) and locks.  Never ending with this bullshit.

Can I drop new valves in or does it need a valve job?

[Stripped66]

  You thought you were going to use a 3-groove valve and keepers with those springs?
I'm only pushing around 420 lbs over the nose with my roller cam, and wouldn't think of using anything but a single groove keeper from a reputable valvetrain company.

Wait until you have to set up the installed height...you might find yourself buying new retainers and/or keepers to make up the difference. Accept the fact that you're the guinea pig...