Brake bleeding driving me nuts !

[RobtheManx]

Please help me !

Getting close to driving my 67 for the first time , but brakes are holding me up , can't get rid of the spongy pedal .

Everything is new , master cylinder has a reservoir mounted directly on top , It has a line lock fitted on the floor of the frame head , next to the master .
I have adjusted the pushrod correctly , all brakes are adjusted fully ( planning to back them off once the pedal is hard ) .

I've put at least 4 litres of fluid through it , no air coming out anywhere , I've pressure bled it , bled by pumping the pedal myself and then going to each bleed nipple , and done bleeding with a friend pumping the pedal .

As I was getting nowhere , I took the master off , blanked the ports and bench bled it like I do with masters on american cars . Re-fit the master with plugs still in place , and the pedal is rock hard ( so this mean the master is good ? and has no air in it right ? )

Connect up the front pipe and bleed , pedal feels a bit worse . Connect up the rears , bleed , pedal is worse still . In fact , I can nearly push it to the bulkhead !

Should I try a new master ?

Any advise greatly appreciated , better still come to my house and sort it for me cause I'm sick of it ! will pay with pizza and beer

Thanks , Rob

[leec]

Discs on front? The only time I have had a drama bleeding brakes was when we had the front calipers on upside down and the bleed nipple was at the bottom
Lee

[RobtheManx]

No , drums all round . Sorry , should have said.

[leec]

I kind of guessed drums when you said you had adjusted them right up!
Sorry, nothing else to suggest
Lee

[Neil Davies]

How old are the new flexi pipes? I've had one collapse internally before.

[Andy]

If you think you have got all the air out, could it be a mechanical problem.
 It could be the handbrake spreader bar is holding the shoes away from the cylinder giving the excess travel at the pedal.

[alex d]

on dual circuit cars I like to bleed the rears first, seems to work better for me

[leec]

I thought you always started with the wheel furthest away from master cylinder?
Lee

[alex d]

sorry, I meant the opposite, I do the fronts first, actually that's how the workshop manual tells you to do it 

on single circuit cars I do start on the wheel farthest away

[RobtheManx]

If you think you have got all the air out, could it be a mechanical problem.
 It could be the handbrake spreader bar is holding the shoes away from the cylinder giving the excess travel at the pedal.

Not thought about that , I'll  try backing the handbrake off . cheers

[RobtheManx]

The flexi hoses are about 6 month old , I bought them when I put the chassis together . They've never been clamped or anything .

I have tried bleeding the fronts first and the rears first !

[spoolin70]

Are you bleeding with the car on level ground ?

I was having trouble with a soft pedal before and a mate swore jacking up the end your bleeding worked best.

Large car jack, rear of the car jacked up so the valance was chest hight, rears bled. Opposite with the front and hay presto, solid pedal 

Worth a try
Darren

[RobtheManx]

If you think you have got all the air out, could it be a mechanical problem.
 It could be the handbrake spreader bar is holding the shoes away from the cylinder giving the excess travel at the pedal.

Not thought about that , I'll  try backing the handbrake off . cheers

Tried that now , no difference .

[RobtheManx]

Another thing I've noticed , although the shoes and drums are all new , I have had to adjust the brakes a lot before they bite . the adjusters are nearly halfway out . surely that can't be right ?

[RobtheManx]

Are you bleeding with the car on level ground ?

I was having trouble with a soft pedal before and a mate swore jacking up the end your bleeding worked best.

Large car jack, rear of the car jacked up so the valance was chest hight, rears bled. Opposite with the front and hay presto, solid pedal 

Worth a try
Darren
[/quote

Ok , this sounds like the next idea to try .

Did you do it with someone pumping the pedal , or pressure bleed Darren ?

[Taylor]

What procedure are you using currently?   I've had best luck putting a hose on the bleeder and opening it. Putting the hose in a jar with some fluid and just pumping away for a while.   Do all four wheels like that.   U can do it by yourself.   Then do the pump and hold method for the final pass or two.

[Elnef]

A friend of mine did have some problem with new brake hose they where to soft 

[spoolin70]

Hi Rob

Only used the pedal but obviously with the car up at such an angle, you don't really want to be fidgeting around 

Good luck
Darren

[alex d]

What year car is this? Are you 100% sure that you have the correct adjusters with the correct shoes and the right way up?

Shoes match the drums too?

[RobtheManx]

What year car is this? Are you 100% sure that you have the correct adjusters with the correct shoes and the right way up?

Shoes match the drums too?

Its a US spec 67 , but I've gone over to shirt axles and early drums on the rear . 
But you may have a point on the adjusters , the slot is angled isn't it . I'll check this evening .

[gkeeton@zbzoom.net]

Definitely double check the compatibility, and orientation of the adjusters. Even if you have the correct angled adjuster, make sure the angle is correct. Do you have new drums? If not, the new shoes may only be touching in the middle of the shoe, and actually bending the drum out of round with a small pressure point instead of the full shoe.

[RobtheManx]

Definitely double check the compatibility, and orientation of the adjusters. Even if you have the correct angled adjuster, make sure the angle is correct. Do you have new drums? If not, the new shoes may only be touching in the middle of the shoe, and actually bending the drum out of round with a small pressure point instead of the full shoe.

I just checked the adjusters , and they are correct , and the correct way around . the drums and shoes are new .
I just now , removed a shoe and offered up to the drum . they certainkey tounch in the middle first , but the gap under each end of the shoe is less than half mm .  is that bad ? Obviously they'll need some bedding in , but that wouldn't cause the problems I'm having would it ?

Thanks , Rob

[leec]

Try it without line lock?

[RobtheManx]

No I haven't , but when the line lock is open , its just a T piece , I can't see why it would make any difference to remove it .

I have checked everything I can think of mechanically , there just HAS to be air in there . I will try the suggestion to jack one end of the car up , and just keep bleeding .

Thanks , Rob

[mr horsepower]

hi rob
i had the exact problem once..
i went the same route as you
later it turned out to be the hoses and dustcovers on the wheel cilinders were balooning
but the didnt leak
good luck

gr henri

[mr horsepower]

forgot to say
these where new parts at that time..
thats why i beter use a used org part then a new knock off !!

[RobtheManx]

hi rob
i had the exact problem once..
i went the same route as you
later it turned out to be the hoses and dustcovers on the wheel cilinders were balooning
but the didnt leak
good luck

gr henri

Thanks Henri , this sounds like it could be the problem .

Had a visit from Richie and Jo today and we isolated the problem to the front end . With the line lock ON , the pedal is hard .

Then with Jo squeezing one front hose with pliers and richie the other , pedal felt good . So its gotta be hoses / wheel cylinders .

Richie suggested wrong wheel cylinders , but I checked the part number , they are correct , but reproduction . I'm gonna order up some good quality hoses  ( any suggestions ?)  And wheel cylinders . Maybe shoes too .

Thanks for everyones input so far , and Richie and Jo's help today . I will report back once I've tried the new parts .

Cheers , Rob

[modnrod]

I'm gonna order up some good quality hoses  ( any suggestions ?)  And wheel cylinders . Maybe shoes too .

and......there is my opening to ask a question.
 

I am also needing new hoses and rear cylinders and since this company looks after Orstrayuns like me VERY well with freight deals and despatch times, are the brand parts listed here also OK (different model to yours Rob)?
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/281611775B/brake-hose-front-t2-71-1302-3-340mm-ff/?crumbStartPage=2&crumbStartRow=55
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/113611775E/brake-hose-rr-irs-1302-03-250mm-mf/?crumbStartPage=2&crumbStartRow=55
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/361611067AATE/wheel-cylinder-ate-fr-1302-3-rr-t3-squareback-65-23-8mm/?crumbStartPage=3&crumbStartRow=95

I've had the same sort of dramas before that you are having Rob, I feel your pain.
 

[RobtheManx]

I'm gonna order up some good quality hoses  ( any suggestions ?)  And wheel cylinders . Maybe shoes too .

and......there is my opening to ask a question.
 

I am also needing new hoses and rear cylinders and since this company looks after Orstrayuns like me VERY well with freight deals and despatch times, are the brand parts listed here also OK (different model to yours Rob)?
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/281611775B/brake-hose-front-t2-71-1302-3-340mm-ff/?crumbStartPage=2&crumbStartRow=55
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/113611775E/brake-hose-rr-irs-1302-03-250mm-mf/?crumbStartPage=2&crumbStartRow=55
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/361611067AATE/wheel-cylinder-ate-fr-1302-3-rr-t3-squareback-65-23-8mm/?crumbStartPage=3&crumbStartRow=95

I've had the same sort of dramas before that you are having Rob, I feel your pain.
 

[RobtheManx]

I'm gonna order up some good quality hoses  ( any suggestions ?)  And wheel cylinders . Maybe shoes too .

and......there is my opening to ask a question.
 

I am also needing new hoses and rear cylinders and since this company looks after Orstrayuns like me VERY well with freight deals and despatch times, are the brand parts listed here also OK (different model to yours Rob)?
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/281611775B/brake-hose-front-t2-71-1302-3-340mm-ff/?crumbStartPage=2&crumbStartRow=55
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/113611775E/brake-hose-rr-irs-1302-03-250mm-mf/?crumbStartPage=2&crumbStartRow=55
https://au.vwheritage.com/shop/beetle/361611067AATE/wheel-cylinder-ate-fr-1302-3-rr-t3-squareback-65-23-8mm/?crumbStartPage=3&crumbStartRow=95

I've had the same sort of dramas before that you are having Rob, I feel your pain.
 

Thanks !   I only manage to get a few hours a week on the bug , so its painful spending so many of those precious hours pissing into the wind !

I'm tempted to get some Goodrich hoses , but I've never felt the need before , and have never had such big problems with standard replacement parts .

Cheers , Rob