Fast Bugs that ran Deano heads?

[Jim Ratto]

How many fast street Bugs ran around with Dean's heads? Were they considered the cream of the crop in So Cal?

[stealth67vw]

Mark Herbert ran them before he went to the CNC wedgeports.

[Bewitched666]

Had a pair on my old 1915 when i lived in florida.
Sold the car with them,didnt know the value of them back then

[Steve D.]

Mark Herbert ran them before he went to the CNC wedgeports.

Mark Herbert ran them until the only valve in the motor that wasn't "Manley" let go and that 94cima plowed the valve head sideways into the seat- no worries though, the heads have recently been reconditioned and should be out running around soon.

[Neil Davies]

When you say Deano heads, do you mean Deano modifed VW heads or the ARPm/Dyno-soar castings, the early superflo type? I can't answer your question, but just thought I'd chuck another one in there!

[Bewitched666]

I had the early superflo ones

[John Rayburn]

Mark Herbert ran them before he went to the CNC wedgeports.

Mark Herbert ran them until the only valve in the motor that wasn't "Manley" let go and that 94cima plowed the valve head sideways into the seat- no worries though, the heads have recently been reconditioned and should be out running around soon.

                                                     Mark ran more of Jeff Denhams heads than anything else. Even when he started using the wedgeports, he had Jeff go through them. It's interesting to note , though, that Jeff give's his headbuilding education credit to Dean Lowry.

[NoBars]

Lowrey heads on my 67, 12.3s on nuts.

[folkevogn]

just curious....what makes these heads so special? Do they have tree angle valve job? any combustionchamber secrets? what`s the valve sizes? have they been flowtested? if so, what flow numbers did they get? Long or short manifolds? Would be interesting to compare heads done by all of the old guru`s like Denham,Lowry,Fumio,Berg etc...

I can understand that people are willing to pay good amount of money for them because they are a nostalgic part of the cal-look history and they deliverce the goods, but are they really that mutch better than other heads when it comes to performance?
I hear of people running 12`s  like peanuts with these heads, is this in full weight cars?

Don`t get my wrong here. All of these guys have contributed alot to the racing/cal-look scene, and vw-racing wouldn`t be what it is to day if these guys hadn`t done what they do so well.
But when it comes to head jobs it all boils down to the laws thermopfysics. I know they have alot of experience, but no one can bend the laws of physics, not even Einstein 

[cameron shorey]

I thought you guys might find these interesting. Here are some photos of a friends Deano parts. He picked them up from Ebay. They went on to a 88 x 69 motor.

[John Rayburn]

Jeff Denham is the only person I know that can make big top end power but have real big airspeed for torque all in the same set of heads. People that have ridden in my car always ask how in the world does it run with that much bottom end yet make power to 8200? Jeff is a real talented guy is how.

[Azureblue52]

Hey Cameron, was your friend called Todd McConkey?

[cameron shorey]

Hey Cameron, was your friend called Todd McConkey?

Yes! Those are Todd's parts. I thought he was going to put them in his buggy, but I don't know what happened to that project. Any ideas?

[folkevogn]

Jeff Denham is the only person I know that can make big top end power but have real big airspeed for torque all in the same set of heads. People that have ridden in my car always ask how in the world does it run with that much bottom end yet make power to 8200? Jeff is a real talented guy is how.

After reading these two very interesting treads. http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=2923.0  and  http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=1363.0  I have started to question some things when it comes to making big horsepower and torque.
As I understand this you need to keep the airspeed down to make big horsepower at high rpms. And the rpm is one of the factors that helps determinate the airspeed. If you only look at the  design of the heads,  how its possible to have big airspeed at low rpm and at high rpm when you keep in mind that a N/A engine is a "air pump" that suffer from pumping losses above 120 m/s. There is ramcharing who provides  a little help, but that extra power is availible for everyone.
I also think the choice of cam is important when it comes to making your engine performe at its very best all over the rpm curve(f.ex more torque at low rpm), and offcourse when it comes to torque and power you have the old saying " there is no substitute for cubic inches".
I`m a novice, and trying to understand the science when it comes to big power.

John, its very cool to hear that you(and so many other people) are so satisfied with your engine, I believe you when you say Jeff is a real talented guy. But this your experience (read: feeling) with your engine, it doesn`t answer my questions in my previous post

 

[Azureblue52]

Hey Cameron, was your friend called Todd McConkey?

Yes! Those are Todd's parts. I thought he was going to put them in his buggy, but I don't know what happened to that project. Any ideas?

I bought the heads and some other parts from him, so they're in the UK now. Haven't ised them on anything yet though.

[John Rayburn]

Jeff Denham is the only person I know that can make big top end power but have real big airspeed for torque all in the same set of heads. People that have ridden in my car always ask how in the world does it run with that much bottom end yet make power to 8200? Jeff is a real talented guy is how.

After reading these two very interesting treads. http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=2923.0  and  http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php?topic=1363.0  I have started to question some things when it comes to making big horsepower and torque.
As I understand this you need to keep the airspeed down to make big horsepower at high rpms. And the rpm is one of the factors that helps determinate the airspeed. If you only look at the  design of the heads,  how its possible to have big airspeed at low rpm and at high rpm when you keep in mind that a N/A engine is a "air pump" that suffer from pumping losses above 120 m/s. There is ramcharing who provides  a little help, but that extra power is availible for everyone.
I also think the choice of cam is important when it comes to making your engine performe at its very best all over the rpm curve(f.ex more torque at low rpm), and offcourse when it comes to torque and power you have the old saying " there is no substitute for cubic inches".
I`m a novice, and trying to understand the science when it comes to big power.

John, its very cool to hear that you(and so many other people) are so satisfied with your engine, I believe you when you say Jeff is a real talented guy. But this your experience (read: feeling) with your engine, it doesn`t answer my questions in my previous post

 

                                             The first line of your previous post was ,"What makes these heads so special?" Thats what I was addressing. They make big torque as well as big top end power. Impossible or not, the fact remains just that. It's what they produce.

[folkevogn]

 
[/quote]                                             The first line of your previous post was ,"What makes these heads so special?" Thats what I was addressing. They make big torque as well as big top end power. Impossible or not, the fact remains just that. It's what they produce.
[/quote]

My bad! :-) I wrote "What makes these heads so special?" as a "intro" to the rest of my question. I can see how easy it is to misinterpetate.

Would be interesting to see the specs on your engine.
Has it been ran on a dyno?if so, do you have any dyno papers with power and torque numbers true the rpm scale?Any flowpapers for the heads?
I think you most have made an excellent choice of cam compared to your heads to make your engine produce power as you describe it.
What type of cam do you run?Does your engine produce peak power at 8200rpm or just power up to 8200rpm? Btw, whats your displasment?

Thank you for the replies

regards
Folke Vogn Haug

[John Rayburn]

Engine specs can be found on the DKP home page or the Complete Cal Look Bible. . The engine has been both bench and chasis dynoed. Peak horsepower was never found on the bench dyno as we shut it off at 7500. The chasis dyno operator inadvertantly shut it off at around 6000 or so because he said he, '  Got caught off gaurd when it started squirming in the straps." The chasis readings were 175 at the rear wheels which translates to 206 flywheel. We never flow benched the heads because I could really care less what any numbers read. Iknow what the heads do and thats good enough for me. The cam is a Web 86C and I run a 42 venturi. Don't get caught up in flow numbers. I know of heads with moderate flow numbers that make big power. And, conversley, heads that make big numbers that run like a toilet.

[folkevogn]

The chasis readings were 175 at the rear wheels which translates to 206 flywheel. We never flow benched the heads because I could really care less what any numbers read. Iknow what the heads do and thats good enough for me. The cam is a Web 86C and I run a 42 venturi. Don't get caught up in flow numbers.

175bhp@6000rpm at the rear wheels is impressive numbers.
I can understand  that you trust Jeff Denham(who wouldn`t) when it comes to the heads. Your engine proves that.
But as you probebly have noticed  I`m trying to figure out what makes an N/A engine run like it does with a given list of parts.
As we all know, its the laws of physics that "controls" any given engine. So it most be possible to be scientific about this......
If you want to have a scientific approach, you cant avoid flow numbers, thats if you use cylinders an manifolds when you do the tests....in my opinion 
Buying the most expensive(best) parts wont nessesary give you the biggest power numbers(I think you understand).
I think heads that make big flownumbers and runs like a toilet, do so because of poor engineering(read: bad combination of parts and tuning). And, conversley heads with  moderate flownumbers  that make big power have good combination og parts and been tuned properly.
In the vw scene i get the feeling that "most" people buy parts after seeing what other people use(witch infact is a pretty good start), but they just put them together and hope for the best(its here you get the poor and good combinations, some are luckier than others).
If you have a set of heads on a engine and it runs 12`s , the same heads wont nessesary run 12`s on another engine combo.(extreme example, but I dont think a 1600ccm with a standard cam would run good with a head with 50mm and 40mm valves  and good flownumbers)
The guys that put alot of time in to this(like jeff probably) will flow the heads before they choose the camshaft profile, to get the most out of their engines.They will offcourse take other things in to concideration, like displacment(bore, stroke,pistonspeed, etc....)
As the flowmachines get cheeper, the price for flowmeasuring your heads will also become cheeper. I think this is a good thing because it will be very helpfull information for the person building the engines, thats if they are willling to learn and use the information offcourse.
You will find racers in the V8 world have the flownumbers of their heads, and they USE them when they discuss. I`ve also heard that there is alot of room for improvment when it comes to flow in carbs and manifolds(I`m having a hard time with this because I love the IDA`s and want to use them ) I`m not say that you should use flownumbers as a measurment of horsepower and torque(read: dont get blinded) But I think they can be helpful as a tool when you build engines
This is offcourse a economical issue, but its getting cheeper as more and more people learn about vw performance heads and can afford the cost to buy the equipment.Aren`t we closing the gap between the pioneers and the guys that have started in more resent times when it comes to vw performance heads.

Am I way off here??
hmmmm....I`m probably way off topic aswell sorry

[stealth67vw]

Port velocity is equally if not more important than flow. Very few head porters are able to measure usable port velocity.

[folkevogn]

I totally agree with you, I read the tread about "bore vs stroke" and it opened my eyes. after some punching on my calculator I found out that I need to change my engine plans to get the power where i want it.Found out that my planned engine would suffered from pumping losses because of too high pistonspeed.Johannes Persson is a guy who know a thinh or two about this, would be cool if he could share more of his experience.

[folkevogn]

hehe, read my last posts. Sounds like I`m a caculator geek, thats not totally true.
But I like to do some research before starting on a project, no matter what it is. I`m a novice, and I cant pull 12 second rabbit out of the hat
So if the calculator can get me started on the right track, I`m all for it. Cant afford to build my engine twice, the driving-season is very short and there is only one 1/4mile track here in Norway so we dont have to mutch time for the test and tune part. 

[Speed-demon]

Folke,

At least not much space for test& tune when You traditionally only drive 42 cm's before the transmission breaks

"Sorry off topic but just had to"

[folkevogn]

hehehe good one maybe I should reevaluate my gearbox builder skills I`m saving money for a new 1st and 2nd gear(tired of standard ones breaking). I was actually close to having the money, when my girlfriend somehow made me mix up my priorities and order a planeticket to Cuba(she had one good argument.... have to go there before Castro ends up 6 feet under), so now I`m back to scratch well, I will only have to wait alittle bit longer...I`m starting to get used to last minute wrenching 

[ugly duckling]

here is 2 sets that dean and his son larry did for me back in 84and86 the ones in the grey ghost were 42x37 small port 1984 larry lowery did these the engine made around 215hp on 12.5 comp 2175 fk89 1.45 rockers. the other set dean did they were 46x38 tit valves 2332 fk98 1.45 rockers 14.01 comp est power 240hp. grey goust ran 12.01 at 107. the black 67 ran 11.62 at 114.50. both cars were all steel the black 67 was the heavie one.  UD.

[folkevogn]

Very cool pictures Jeff, is it you in the pictures? anyway, the guy in the picture taken outdoor looks pretty satisfied  is it the timeslip his holding in his hand? Is this the car you currently run(the sleeper)? Looks like the rearlightglasses is bolted directly to the fender, was this done because of the "custom" look og because of weight? Did many people run that big displacments  on the strip back then or was it more normal with the sub 2liter engines. Did they have any limitation on displacment in different classes?

[ugly duckling]

hello. no thats a 100.00 check i won for index race i won at palmdale calif. and no that is not the same car i run today. who knows what happen to that car the last i heard it was in arizona some where in peices. the black car is in japan somewere the owner of flatfour bought that car back in 91. i bolted just the lenses on the grey goust it sorta gave that 60s/70s race car look. the grey car was a wheel standen machine the stinger was the sissy bar i sqwashed it shut many times. UD.

[cameron shorey]

Port velocity is equally if not more important than flow. Very few head porters are able to measure usable port velocity.

Strange, because port velocity tools are readily available from these guys.
 http://www.audietech.com/

I wonder if too much attention is placed on flow at full lift. The valve only spends a short amount of time at full lift. Wouldn't it be wiser to look mid lift flow numbers, since the valve spends more time there? I think a good example of this is Alan Uyeno's motor. Alan's car runs pump gas and goes 11.90s. Nothing special about the full lift flow numbers, but really good mid lift flow. Heads by K-Roc by the way.

[folkevogn]

@UD  funny story how mutch did it effect your 1/4 mile passes with the sqwashed stinger    so it wasn`t any displacment  limitation? I remember that we used to have three different classes here in Norway. Under 1800ccm(or 2000ccm, cant remember), under 2500ccm and 2500ccm+

@cameron I might be wrong here, but wouldn`t a valve stay the same amount of time at any given point along its way. (offcourse not when its closed) 
If you look at the time elapsed from the valve opens until it closes. If you can take that time and cut it up in smaller intervals.When you let the time elapsed during an intervall decrease towards zero the interval where the valve is at full lift(the only place where valve will pass ones)  will be so small that you can "ignore" it. This is just logical thinking, like I said, I might be wrong

[stealth67vw]

Port velocity is equally if not more important than flow. Very few head porters are able to measure usable port velocity.

Strange, because port velocity tools are readily available from these guys.
 http://www.audietech.com/

I wonder if too much attention is placed on flow at full lift. The valve only spends a short amount of time at full lift. Wouldn't it be wiser to look mid lift flow numbers, since the valve spends more time there? I think a good example of this is Alan Uyeno's motor. Alan's car runs pump gas and goes 11.90s. Nothing special about the full lift flow numbers, but really good mid lift flow. Heads by K-Roc by the way.

K-Roc is one of the guys capable of measuring velocity.