Reliablility of performance type 1 engines

[rebel]

Well... We're just taking first steps in that matter in Poland, but so far I'd like to reach for some expirience of The Lounge.

There are a few stronger than stock units by now. We discover problems with reliability of them.

How many miles did U guys cover in not-so-hardkore 69-stroke engines and mid size strokes ? 

Are failures rater frequent or not? I'm asking, couse some people start to question the point of hot-roddint type 1 engine because of the breakages...

[Jim Ratto]

#1 enemy of high perf Type 1 is heat. If you run them hot, for whatever reason, they die. Rod bearings go, exhaust valves break, heads get loose, oil pressure goes away, valve jobs go south. If you build a stroker somewhat conservatively, you can drive it for a long long time. I built a 90.5 x 78 for a friend of mine and while it wasn't the fastest thing around, it did run for over 150,000 miles, without even a valve job. I wouldn't suggest doing that, because some things probably wore out beyond recognition but it was still running.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Pick a good tried combo and err on the side of conservative. Keep oil temp under 200F and keep oil clean. Don't use a drag cam. Jet carbs so the motor is "happy."

There are a million opinions out there. At least on this forum most everybody agrees. Try this question elsewhere on the web and you're bound to be more confused after they answer you.

have fun,
Jim Ratto

[rebel]

Thanks, Jim

Well, You know I'm tryin to encourage people to build engines. But I when they do it and it breaks quick after a few thousand miles, they start to ask questions if the big $$$  spent are worth anything...   

[Jim Ratto]

Thanks, Jim

Well, You know I'm tryin to encourage people to build engines. But I when they do it and it breaks quick after a few thousand miles, they start to ask questions if the big $$$  spent are worth anything...   

sure. What is breaking?

[rebel]

engine 1: 2187cc 94x78.8(scat)

Well somthing started to rattle horribly after shifting down to 2nd (stock ratios) and the owner tund it off. Oil Temp was ok before it happended.   
After taking the oil out he foung such things in the used oil bowl: http://www.heiro.pl/mf.JPG

The other one: 1776cc -

hang up valve. Engine still not dissasebled for checkups or I didn't get info...

My Engine in the previous config:

1914cc / Mahle 94 + Stock Crank
ufortunately used stock rods
40x37.5 reworked stock heads
cam: Scat C35
no full-flow
1 5/8 merged
40 DRLAs
1.1:1 rockers on hardened shaft

Well, fortunately nothing serious happened - engine was runnin hot and the heads were removed for inspection and it turned out that rods got loose somehow.


 

[Jim Ratto]

engine 1: 2187cc 94x78.8(scat)

Well somthing started to rattle horribly after shifting down to 2nd (stock ratios) and the owner tund it off. Oil Temp was ok before it happended.   
After taking the oil out he foung such things in the used oil bowl: http://www.heiro.pl/mf.JPG

The other one: 1776cc -

hang up valve. Engine still not dissasebled for checkups or I didn't get info...

My Engine in the previous config:

1914cc / Mahle 94 + Stock Crank
ufortunately used stock rods
40x37.5 reworked stock heads
cam: Scat C35
no full-flow
1 5/8 merged
40 DRLAs
1.1:1 rockers on hardened shaft

Well, fortunately nothing serious happened - engine was runnin hot and the heads were removed for inspection and it turned out that rods got loose somehow.


 

hard to see what those pieces were in that pic. Looks like wire? 

Rods got "loose"?

[rebel]

I'll ask friend for bigger picture.

Yeah, that's what they told me at the speedshop... I did not see it on my very eyes...

Hope, that present config of my 1914cc would last longer than 100kms.

[Zach Gomulka]

Along with heat, high rpms are a big killer in VW engines. A boxer engine wants to pull itself apart. The lower you rev it, the longer it will live. 100,000 kilometers should be no problem at all with any well built hipo aircooled vw engine.

[nicolas]

the engine should be able to last as long as a stock unit, but it can get hotter, but that is allready said. and if you drive it like a stocker it will last, of course you don't so it will wear in the long run, but you have to make a combo that is 'balanced' and something that is more on the censervative site. i have found that out just now when i came around building the 2006CC  engine. maybe it is better not to have the fastest engine, but the one that is wellbuild and will give me fun for a long time.

that wirepart btw should not come out of the engine...

[Bruce]

#1 enemy of high perf Type 1 is heat.

#2 is lack of maintenance.  You have to keep on your valve train all the time.  Keep checking until you know what interval you can get away with.  I know one guy with a high reving engine that checks his valves every time he drives the car.  A stocker can be ignored for 10k km.  A mild high perf engine is somewhere in between.  You have to find out where your engine stands by checking it very often when your engine is new.  Once you know how it changes, you can increase your interval.
There is nothing wrong with using stock rods.  If something came loose, it wasn't the part's fault.
Oh ya, my 2 liter has just over 100k km on it right now.

[nigelg65]

Looks like some pretty good advice going on here. My 1776cc got hot and needed rebuilding after 2000 miles... and that one was built by a very reputable UK engine builder. You really do have to be careful about (a) who you get to build your engine if you can't do it yourself and (b) how you look after it once you get it in the car.

www.type-magazine.com

[Luftkraft]

Hi there, I drove my 1776cc during more than 40'000 kilometers without any problems, but with lots of fun. I used it mostly on the road, at 110 kph average speed on the autobahn, sometimes up to 160 or 180 kph for a short while (when hunting series 3 BMWs), travelled all across Europe (Spa, Bitburg,...), drove it to work and several times on the quartermile. A few months ago I sold the car with that 1776cc to a new owner, and I know he beats the sh** out of it. He even increased the CR from a mild 8.4:1 to something around 10:1. And this winter he's said to rework the heads to get some more hp. Still without any engine rebuild! Specs are: AS21 case, add. oil sump, 69mm stock VW crank, 90.5mm mahle cyl/pistons, Engle W120 cam, Weber 44IDF (during the first 2 years, then 48IDAs), dynoed 110hp at the flywheel. Only thing that broke during those 3 years was the clutch.

[Jim Ratto]

I'd go as far to consider my 2165 pretty reliable.
Like Bruce was saying, you have to service them, and I check my valves probably once a month or so. MOST of the time they haven't moved. Once in every 4-5 adjustments, I pull rockers and check torque on lower 4 head studs too, and check pushrods for straightness/wear. Lastly I wiggle springs up and down to see if guides are still ok. Before I put rockers back on I squirt a little moly enriched oil in pushrods and then put rockers back on and set valves. If I drive to Nicks or somewhere of distance and it's hot out, I check valves and change oil the next day. Probably more superstition than science.
As much as I drive this motor, I'd say it's been good to me. I have no idea how many miles are on it but I'd estimate 7000 by now. Drove it today to work, then had to run over to Ventura for Dr. appt, was running late, turning 4500 rpm....90mph or so, oil temp never exceded 180F...with Santana power size pulley. I really think this is a good street combo and I'm super happy with it.
But if I didn't service it, it would probably be a pile of greasy broken junk.

have fun,
Jim

[Bruce]

On top of what Jim does, I'm willing to bet he knows exactly how his engine sounds/feels, so that if it changes even the slightest bit, he gets in there to find out why.  If not, small problems always get worse.

I have to admit that I began to neglect my engine since nothing ever changed.  I didn't check my valves for almost 2 years.  There were 2 trips to Mexico in there.  Then last June when I got back, I noticed it was running a little rough at low rpms.  A valve check showed a couple of tight ones, but not that bad.  No effect.  Better change the spark plugs (50k km on them).  No effect.  But then I saw a small crack in the intake manifold.  A-HA!  After Darren (Kroc) fixed that, it is back to it's normal EFI-like manners.

Another high mileage reliable big engine I know of is Bill Schwimmer's 2275.  215hp at the flywheel and over 30k km.  Maybe Bill will let us know a few of his tricks?

[ESH]

I've had two versions of my 2332, both very similar but version 2 was a post 30K miles refresh, it was pretty good all in all, a couple of things needed replacing internally but nothing significant and it would have been fine if left. This year the engine hasn't had much use but it has a few K on it and so far so good. It's reasonably low compression with a fairly light valve train and on first build got balanced up, it's never minded RPM and has had some fairly hard use on both the street and strip being used daily for a few years. My girlfriend is having a similar motor built for her car and is planning on getting regular use out of it and reliability is not something either of us are especially worried about.
 

[Jim Ratto]

On top of what Jim does, I'm willing to bet he knows exactly how his engine sounds/feels, so that if it changes even the slightest bit, he gets in there to find out why.  If not, small problems always get worse.

I have to admit that I began to neglect my engine since nothing ever changed.  I didn't check my valves for almost 2 years.  There were 2 trips to Mexico in there.  Then last June when I got back, I noticed it was running a little rough at low rpms.  A valve check showed a couple of tight ones, but not that bad.  No effect.  Better change the spark plugs (50k km on them).  No effect.  But then I saw a small crack in the intake manifold.  A-HA!  After Darren (Kroc) fixed that, it is back to it's normal EFI-like manners.

Another high mileage reliable big engine I know of is Bill Schwimmer's 2275.  215hp at the flywheel and over 30k km.  Maybe Bill will let us know a few of his tricks?

yep Bruce...you got it.  It's funny how much I notice by using sense of "feel"...through the gearshift, steering wheel, seat belt. I've set valves, gone out spun it up hard and then get a block away....uh oh...something's not right. F&%*()*&$*$*^^#^!!! Gotta let it cool down and recheck. When my Berg cam went flat in 1992 the first signs were detected by sound and feel. Weird new sound at 3500 rpm....bring it home for tune up...no luck. Carbs spitting tons of fuel on two forward barrels (1 & 3) well....WTF links only two carb barrels opposing one another? cam and linkage. Uh oh.
Driving to work a few months ago, off idle bad behavior, cleared up at 3200 or so....idle jet trouble....probably came loose as I have never had a 65 idle jet clog in an IDA.....pull over, yep # 4 jet had backed out. 
I've always told guys you gotta use all of your senses when driving and tuning one of these old cars. You'll really get to know when the engine is happy and when it is upset.

[Jordy/DVK]

I've always told guys you gotta use all of your senses when driving and tuning one of these old cars. You'll really get to know when the engine is happy and when it is upset.

 Then maybe it's not a very good idea for me to get a performance engine. I can drive 20kms without even noticing that my emergency brake is still on. I didn't even notice the decrease in power with a 1200...

[JS]

Or maybe just fix that emergency brake! 

[Zach Gomulka]

I know what you mean about knowing all the sounds your car makes! I was driving my '67 to work once and I could hear this faint whirring noise that was freaking me out. I babied it to work, and back home, started poking around and found a tiny 3"x3" paper receipt that got sucked into the fan. Nobody could hear the noise but me 

[GreenTom]

comming back to the first engine with sone shit in the oil:
it is piston clips the standard ones i mean one from 3rd piston. it broke in parts destroyed the piston and the barell. the thing which was stopping the engine was something allyesh which follen into the combustion chamber through the carb. and destroyed the chaber (head, valves and piston).


how about wearing out the cam and cam followers?

In my firs 1776 we used C35 and tucho valvulas... they survived abot 40 miles...
then the combo W110+scats followers is ok. no problems, it survived long journey and some fun...
I heard in UK that most lifters and cams lives for not more than 30-50K km.

[erikaa]

engine 1: 2187cc 94x78.8(scat)

Well somthing started to rattle horribly after shifting down to 2nd (stock ratios) and the owner tund it off. Oil Temp was ok before it happended.   
After taking the oil out he foung such things in the used oil bowl: http://www.heiro.pl/mf.JPG

Looks a lot like what i found in my engine after a horrible rattling. I stopped quickly and the parts only made it to the top of a piston though.

By the way - my engine was a standard 1600 with the part coming from my 34 Pict-3 carburator