Fixes for difficult starting.

[andrewlandon67]

As has been discussed on here for years and years, heat-soaked carbs tend to kill modern fuels. It's something I've had issues with from day one with my current 1914, and I've decided to finally do something about it as part of my "civilization" of my car. It seems to me that a car that won't start after being brought up to temp and then let sit for 10-15 minutes isn't too civilized, nor is it practical. From what I can tell, the best solution to this would be a set of phenolic spacers underneath my carbs, but I was wondering if a proper electric fuel pump might help at least start getting fresh gas into the carbs and getting it started more easily than with my stock-style mechanical pump? What do you guys all think?

[Neil Davies]

I've run a Facet pump on mine for around 20 years, and have never had heat soak issues. Don't know if they're connected though! I initially fitted it because the stock pump stopped working and the replacement one didn't have the same length push rod!

[nicolas]

Yes. In short...
I am a big fan of original setups, the use of points and a regular fuel pump. In case of a malfunction easily replaced.
But my type3 boiling out the carbs all the time I opted for a electric fuelpump to prime the carbs when I want to start it.
Be aware, it still isn't modern or civilized, as there is still a procedure to follow. I pump it for at least 10 times on the gas pedal and start it. Still pumping extra to get it going.
But it sure beats cranking the battery empty after three starts.

Hope it helps.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Moto E (4) met Tapatalk

[H67bug]

I have spacers to reduce heat soak.

Holley fuel pump is turned off before stopping the car and on again before starting. I can hear the tone change when carbs are filled. I barely touch the throttle to start.

Bloody fiddly old cars!

[Garrick Clark]

How hot are ya heads getting

[andrewlandon67]

Yes. In short...
I am a big fan of original setups, the use of points and a regular fuel pump. In case of a malfunction easily replaced.
But my type3 boiling out the carbs all the time I opted for a electric fuelpump to prime the carbs when I want to start it.
Be aware, it still isn't modern or civilized, as there is still a procedure to follow. I pump it for at least 10 times on the gas pedal and start it. Still pumping extra to get it going.
But it sure beats cranking the battery empty after three starts.

Hope it helps.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Moto E (4) met Tapatalk

How hot are ya heads getting

Well, if I still have issues with this happening after doing one or both of these additions, I'll make sure to check. Oil temps seem normal, and there's no discoloration of the valve boxes, even with some long, hard drives in hot weather under its belt. I'll try and borrow a friend's infrared thermometer and check it next time I actually have the damned thing running and have a chance to drive it around.

Nicolas, I'm not looking for something as easy to start as a modern car, just something that keeps it from needing an hour or two before I can start it at all.

[Garrick Clark]

Fit a 356 top pulley and get the fan spinning faster.
I have 1 on mine.

[Eddie DVK]

I have spacers to reduce heat soak.

Holley fuel pump is turned off before stopping the car and on again before starting. I can hear the tone change when carbs are filled. I barely touch the throttle to start.

Bloody fiddly old cars!

Same here, never a problem with starting hot.

[H67bug]

Fit a 356 top pulley and get the fan spinning faster.
I have 1 on mine.

I did this and after seeing someone’s explode on the road, checked mine and it was cracking. It’s worth checking them from time to time as feedback is that it is a more common occurrence than we would wish.

It’s really difficult to get a safer top pulley than the genuine VW one. The CSP one is good but stock diameter.

[andrewlandon67]

I have spacers to reduce heat soak.

Holley fuel pump is turned off before stopping the car and on again before starting. I can hear the tone change when carbs are filled. I barely touch the throttle to start.

Bloody fiddly old cars!

Same here, never a problem with starting hot.

So as best I can tell, the solution would be to go electric for my fuel pump AND to put some spacers between the carbs and the manifolds... I've definitely been considering doing the electric pump thing for a while, even with my motors relatively small fuel demands, as my car spends much of its time sitting these days and it's a bit taxing on the starter motor to try and fill those float bowls with just a mechanical pump. I definitely appreciate all of the advice from you guys, and I'll be doing some research on pumps for the time being! For now though, I'll send Gary Berg a message and have him get a set of spacers headed my way!

[Bruce]

I'm currently driving a stock Beetle that's got rust getting past the filter into the carb, so I have to take the carb off and clean it out a couple of times a year.  Every time I take the hose off the carb, pressurized fuel sprays out, meaning that the stock pump holds pressure against the inlet valve.
In your engine, maybe this pressurized fuel is leaking past your inlet valve in the 15 min you are stopped, flooding your engine.
My modified Beetle has an electric pump, and as noted above, I switch it off before arriving at my parking spot.  This guarantees there's no pressure in the lines to flood the carb. It's a good anti-theft tool too.

Here's the pump to get:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Fuel-Pump-Carter-P60504-P90091-In-Line-12V-2-4-PSI-/113181202483

Don't get a Holley pump, it's got to be the worst pump on the market. They are unreliable and sound like a jackhammer when they're running.  They put out too much pressure for us, so you have to buy another part that can fail called a regulator. Remember the famous quote from a GM Service director in Detroit, "parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems".

The Carter is internally regulated to the correct pressure for us and it can't be heard when the engine is running.

[Martin S.]

Bruce it sounds like your gas tank is rusted?
I agree excess fuel pressure on shutdown could cause the problem. I only use the more expensive stock mechanical pumps available now with the built in shut off valve. Just like VW had before everyone replaced the original pumps that had the shut off valve with a cheap repop one with the omitted valve.

[Jim Ratto]

I fought carb heat soak from 2002 until 2017. Phenolic spacers 13mm thick resolved the issue, after several other attempts to fix.

[andrewlandon67]

I fought carb heat soak from 2002 until 2017. Phenolic spacers 13mm thick resolved the issue, after several other attempts to fix.

I'm currently waiting to hear back from Gary Berg about a set of spacers for my 44s. Hopefully those will solve my issue as well. I'm also switching to an electric pump, but that's mostly for starting my car after the long periods of sitting it seems to be going through. Still, I think it might help to be able to push some fresh fuel into the bowls faster than a cheap mechanical pump.

[andrewlandon67]

I fought carb heat soak from 2002 until 2017. Phenolic spacers 13mm thick resolved the issue, after several other attempts to fix.

I'm currently waiting to hear back from Gary Berg about a set of spacers for my 44s. Hopefully those will solve my issue as well. I'm also switching to an electric pump, but that's mostly for starting my car after the long periods of sitting it seems to be going through. Still, I think it might help to be able to push some fresh fuel into the bowls faster than a cheap mechanical pump.

I haven't gotten the spacers installed yet, but the electric pump seems to be helping as hot-starting my motor has gotten considerably easier over the past few days of driving my '67. There's still some spitting from the carbs, but nothing like the issues I was having with the mechanical pump. Hopefully this Saturday I'll have time to get the spacers installed and finally see how it responds, but I'm still stoked to be headed in the right direction, finally.

[andrewlandon67]

I finally got the spacers installed last weekend, and after a few days of tinkering and driving, I think the issue's gone. I made two stops on my way home from work yesterday, both after the engine was up to temp, the first was for 5 minutes and the second took about 10. Both times the car was able to hot-start without me touching the throttle pedal, which never happened even with the Kadrons I had on my old singleport. It was an incredible feeling to crank the engine for a few seconds and have it immediately spring up to just below the normal idle of about 1100 rpm.

Edit: I wanna add, it was immediately able to drive off with no undue sputters/coughs like it used to get as well.

[j-dub]

Great result. 

I have to admit that I have tried them myself and not noticed a difference. I am sure it all depends on the details of the situation.

[flatfire]

I have had starting difficulties before, reading Jim Rattos recommendation NGK iridium plugs. One quick turn of the starter its away.
I have been playing with my jet combinations still starts first time. Seems to be more economical, on our blast through Holland/Belgium to EBI I was on one less petrol stop than most of the others. Maybe that has something to do with running 48 idfs rather than IDAS 

[andrewlandon67]

I have had starting difficulties before, reading Jim Rattos recommendation NGK iridium plugs. One quick turn of the starter its away.
I have been playing with my jet combinations still starts first time. Seems to be more economical, on our blast through Holland/Belgium to EBI I was on one less petrol stop than most of the others. Maybe that has something to do with running 48 idfs rather than IDAS 

Great result. 

I have to admit that I have tried them myself and not noticed a difference. I am sure it all depends on the details of the situation.

While I'm sure that the cooler temps this week have helped, as well as a more cautious right foot, I'm just glad that my bug is able to be an occasional errand-runner again. I'll definitely look into those plugs the next time those come due, but for now I'm happy with it as-is.