Planning a new 2165cc for my 67, some camshaft ideas

[alex d]

So originally I wanted to do a simple period warm up of the stock 1500 but ended up running into too-good-to-pass deals on big parts so somehow the idea morphed into a stroker with IDAs  

Stuff I have:

-Stock late 70s AS21 case, it was linebored in the 90s and never used again, needs bored for 94s, stroke clearancing, drilling for full flow, etc.

-78mm revmaster crank (chevy journal) and H-beam rods (stock length)

-Denham big oval port welded heads, 42x37.5mm valves, relocated plugs, 45cc chambers, these heads were freshly done and never used, they come with match ported intakes for IDFs, which I'm not planning to use

-almost new IDAs with 37mm chokes, choice of short or long intakes (would need to be matched to the heads, the short ones might need welding to reach the big ports, have not checked yet)

This is not a daily driver, but I don't need a racecar engine either.  Some sporty "camminess" would be nice, at the same time I'm not interested in changing valve springs yearly. Also note that the 113 heads don't have intake guide bosses, so I'm concerned about not going too wild with valve lift.

I will be using stock ratio gearbox (4.125:1 )so I was thinking something around the lines of an Engle FK10  or maybe a Webcam 86b+6 (extra duration custom order), SLR XR310, any other ideas? I could probably just run a 86c and run 12s all day, but I'd rather have something less aggressive for the valvetrain, and a Fk8 seems almost boring for a stroker

also the 45cc chambers mean I'll be dishing pistons to get a reasonable compression ratio, how much can the AA cast pistons be dished safely?

[alex d]

Some pictures of the heads for reference
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[DaveN]

Some pictures of the heads for reference
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How many years did you have to wait for them 

[WhiteTrash]

Some pictures of the heads for reference
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How many years did you have to wait for them 

He didn't have to wait long at all. Jeff just sold him somebody elses heads who'd already paid in full, waited 5 years and has given up on them. 

[alex d]

I bought the heads from someone else that already had had them for quite a while and decided to not use them

now we can go back to discuss engines 

[Jim Ratto]

have you already purchased 1.4/1.5 ratio rockers?

[DaveN]

Some pictures of the heads for reference
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How many years did you have to wait for them 

He didn't have to wait long at all. Jeff just sold him somebody elses heads who'd already paid in full, waited 5 years and has given up on them. 

 
I would us a FK 8 if it was mine. I have one in my low compression 2276, it drives nice on the road and still ran a 13.2 with the turbo gear ratios that are in the gearbox

[alex d]

have you already purchased 1.4/1.5 ratio rockers?

not yet, but i was planning to. I dont find stock rockers really cost effective, by the time you get bolt on shafts shimmed properly, stands ground and swivel feet adjusters you have spent almost as much as a set of scat or cb 1.4s

[Jim Ratto]

have you already purchased 1.4/1.5 ratio rockers?

not yet, but i was planning to. I dont find stock rockers really cost effective, by the time you get bolt on shafts shimmed properly, stands ground and swivel feet adjusters you have spent almost as much as a set of scat or cb 1.4s

Hear me out....
I recently went to the CB2300 cam in my 94 x 84 I've been planning and building for some time. It's been on the street since mid-June.
I'm running it with Scat 1.25 rockers, which dial in closer to 1.3. I can share actual lift @ valves, if you want, I can go find the build sheets for this motor. It came out around 0.560" with the real springs (using light checking springs will give you a false 0.020-0.030" more).
I am running a 5.352" Carrillo on this Okrasa 912 journal crank- with ports and valve sizes very similar to yours. The heads were down with air-speed as concern # 1, and flow 199cfm @ 0.570" @ 28" with manifolds on. Compression is set to 9.8:1.
I did have the lifter bores bushed, as the ramps and lift at the lobe of this cam are getting on the very aggressive side.
The engine runs unlike any other I've had in my car in the last 33 years. Under 2800 rpm it is a little bitchy, above 3000 no problem accepting throttle, above 4000 it's extremely urgent ride to 7200. My exhaust system at the moment is undersized and will be dealt with in the near future. I don't drag race my car, I use it as a regular driver. I run 4.375:1 x stock, with 195/65 and car is content turning 3800-4200 on freeway, willing to blow by anything it needs to pass. Still amazed with the lack of drama with this setup, valvetrain is quiet, oil temperature on 95F day, making climb eastward through eastern Ventura County to LA County from Conejo grade never touched 180F. I run 42mm venturies, was surprised how much jet this engine needed to "come alive", which leads to the one downside so far with this new set up- fuel mileage is much worse, recent trip to Costa Mesa and back from Simi at normal highway speeds was 14.6 mpg.
The CB2300 is one cam I would consider ,based on what it seems like you're looking for. I was advised not to run it with full blown 1.4 for my purposes (lift at lobe is 0.430"), which I agreed with and used a set of brand new Scat "1.25" I had stashed. I think the 1.4 are going to be overkill on street with this profile.
Your motor will probably run a little hairier since shorter stroke/longer rod/less cc if you run this cam. Advancing intake lobe center 4 degrees will tame that some.

Have fun.

Jim

[alex d]

Thanks for your input Jim! .430 lift at lobe seems like a little much, even with the 1.25 rockers, I'm guessing you get around .560 at the valve? Which springs are you running? I'm trying to stay away from CB650s and the like

[Jim Ratto]

Thanks for your input Jim! .430 lift at lobe seems like a little much, even with the 1.25 rockers, I'm guessing you get around .560 at the valve? Which springs are you running? I'm trying to stay away from CB650s and the like

Intake valve lifts (actual with 650 springs):
1: 0.562
2: 0.565
3: 0.575
4: 0.560

Exhaust
1: 0.567
2: 0.575
3: 0.584
4: 0.575

Spring pressure (@ seat / nose)
Intake
1: 165/400
2: 170/400
3: 165/400
4: 165/400
Exhaust
1: 165/400
2: 165/400
3: 170/400
4: 170/400

Most springs went to coil bind @ 0.660-0.670 when checked in head on drill press with dial indicator attached.

[gkeeton@zbzoom.net]

If you're thinking FK8/FK10, the shop I used to work at had several customers change them out in 2276's/2332's for a Crower 61005, and completely change the driveability of the engines. I had a similar experience in a 1776 with Engle's cookie cutter W110, and a 61004. You can check out their specs at https://www.crower.com/cam-card-finder/ and type in the model number.

[nicolas]

FK8, it will not disappoint

[bilboa2]

check out fk44 specs, many like it better than the k8 choice. Still very streetable.

[Martin S.]

my 2333 has the slipper skirt cast AA pistons dished in a bathtub shape. It looks like he got 7cc from the pics. I don’t know if he could have got more.
with 7cc’s you’re at 10.2:1 pretty decent.

This Cam is huge, reliable, (look at the year) and perfect for a daily! Check the specs.  
Not sure how it would work N/A.

[TexasTom]

It seems to me you may have some parts that will drive you to what is necessary to use ...
specifically, those beautiful cylinder heads!
With the chamber size so small, you may be driven to a cam spec a bit higher than optimal, but still you can find a good choice.
It will all depend on what increase in affective chamber size can be made with your pistons of choice so I'd concentrate on that first, then choose a camshaft.

I recently ran into the same situation for a customer's build:
He had a 2276 in a Spyder kit. The camshaft (CB2295) had begun to go flat and one of the lifter bores cratered (exploded!).
The chambers on his CB heads were also quite small at 48cc ...
Due to the budget being preset for the rebuild and any extra funds left over for potential custom machine work being absorbed by the new engine case, I decided to choose the camshaft based on what it would need rather than what would be "Best" for the application and driving style/gearing.
The simple choice in the end was a Webcam 86B, for this particular engine.
Without going crazy adding too much deck height (although more than ideal was used) to get the compression down, this was ideal, especially considering the vehicle's light weight.
Compression was set at an easy 10.2:1.
With 44 IDFs using 36 vents it performs very nicely on the road as a daily and still has more than enough spunk to put a smile ear to ear.
Still not optimal, but a good compromise in my opinion.

If I had to make a choice for your build, Alex, I'd go with something similar to a Webcam 86A (if you are able to find those extra chamber ccs) or a "B". Both are great and I like the Webs over the Engles by personal choice.
Good luck with the build and be sure to post the burnout videos when done! LOL
TxT

[Torben Alstrup]

Hello.
I agree on the Web versus Engle thing. That said the FK8 is a great cam, in the right combo.

Now, the Denham heads usually have very high I/E ratios. I suspect those heads to have that too with that valve combo. With that, and your induction in mind you definitely do not want an overly agressive cam, because that would kill the lower rpm driveability and make the engine a drag off of the line unless you rev it. The #2300 is out of the question IMHO. What you really wanted is a split duration cam but noone except JPM makes a split cam for ratio rockers with that much duration unless its a special order. A perfect cam would be the Web 121/125, but it is for stock rockers and I think it would be pushing it to add 1,25 rockers. However, the "1,25"  stock style rockers sold by AA is only about 1,15-1,18 IRL With those you will get a little over 0,500" lift. This could actually be a killer set up with the rest of your combo and will give you a crisp lower end along with good rpm power. 10-1 on premium fuel

[Bad bug]

Some pictures of the heads for reference
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How many years did you have to wait for them 

He didn't have to wait long at all. Jeff just sold him somebody elses heads who'd already paid in full, waited 5 years and has given up on them. 

 
I would us a FK 8 if it was mine. I have one in my low compression 2276, it drives nice on the road and still ran a 13.2 with the turbo gear ratios that are in the gearbox

DaveN what are your turbo gear ratios like.

[alex d]

Thanks for all the input guys, since I'm dealing with a seven month old baby VW projects are not the main priority right now, so I have time to rethink the combo