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Author Topic: (Topic changed) My 2017 ccm rebuild  (Read 2763 times)
samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« on: January 01, 2021, 16:25:01 pm »

So as i am rebuilding my engine and I wanna make it to the highest possible standards i thought about opening this topic.
I have a std size original VW case , measured and found ok !
I gonna install a set of Silverline Main Bearings .
As far as i heard some of the best aftermarket currently available.
Oil is going to be Motul 300v 15w50

When setting up the clearance , what to pay attention for ?  What is your recommended clearance?
For street use , for strip use .
Do you put an oil groove into the split bearings ?
How deep and how large ?
How do you measure the clearance?
With a gauge or do you use plasticgauge ?
The split bearing obviously needs to be checked with the case bolted together , what about the circle ones ? Do they change installed or laying on the bench ? Do they crush ?

How to prepare the conrod bearings ?
   
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Garrick Clark
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Posts: 481


« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2021, 20:11:32 pm »

Make sure the oil hole in the bearing saddle isn't half covered by the main bearing oil groove
Mains need to be a snug fit in the saddle cup, the flanged bearing has to snug at the flange sides too.
So your standard case thrust is 22mm.The main bearing needs to be at least 22 mm, Just under 22mm is better as it creates a tighter fit.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 20:17:06 pm by Garrick Clark » Logged

Air cooled Engine builder
samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2021, 20:55:17 pm »

I did so , all the holes are aligned after some Dremel usage they are all fully open to the groove, i also opened the holes im the bearings to the original VW spec 6 mm , they were only like 4mm before.
Put a groove of 0,35 mm deep 2,5 wide into #2 bearing . 
#4 bearing opened the hole from 1,5 mm to 2,5 mm so it fully aligns and has the same diameter as original VW bearings .
Bearing clearance measured , between 0,055 an 0,06 mm .
#1 has a tight fit, 21,98 mm
Guess this should make it





 


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Garrick Clark
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Posts: 481


« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2021, 22:03:45 pm »

Looks like your on to the next build stage. The crank Web clearance work on the case looks carefully done.
One of my tips is use the allen headed oil pressure relief valve caps instead of the original ones.
And put an oil return into the case were the crank seal goes. Look at the oil return for the cam. Replicate it, some cases have them already, some don't.
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Air cooled Engine builder
samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2021, 00:21:16 am »

Thanks for the info , my case got the oil return from the crank seal down into the case , and i have the CSP plugs ready to be installed too


I hope I get to prepare the cam bearings tomorrow and maybe start with the conrod bearings too .
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samotorsport
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2021, 18:35:09 pm »

Camshaft bearings set to 0,06 mm



I only realized now how much to tight they always have been on my previous builds


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samotorsport
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2021, 19:08:20 pm »

Tomorrow I will take care about the cam gear . Got a little selection to make it fit


All original Volkswagen Magnesium , reworked by myself .

They clear well with a 30 mm Pump

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Bruce
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Posts: 1402


« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2021, 14:34:48 pm »

They clear well with a 30 mm Pump
I think you should reconsider using 50 wt tar in a new engine with that big pump.
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2021, 14:52:03 pm »

You mean the oil ?


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Garrick Clark
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Posts: 481


« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2021, 16:41:14 pm »

Yes oil. Maybe use 15/40
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 18:57:55 pm by Garrick Clark » Logged

Air cooled Engine builder
samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2021, 19:44:59 pm »

Thanks for the tip , can you explain me why ?
I run full flow with external filter and external oil cooler

The conrod clearance is checked and they are 0,45 - 0,06 . The 0,06 comes du to the fact that my crank has been resurfaced due to minor scratches . Still within limitd but 0,01 less in diameter on this (#2 Conrod)

The camgear is set to 0,01 mm


The crank clearance fwd/back is set to 0,1 mm so straight to the middle



For the assembly I used Permatex, the new stuff from CSP , it feels good to work with it !


 
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Garrick Clark
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2021, 20:07:07 pm »

1 problem that can occur with 20/50 and tight specs is the  oil filter can pop on a cold start up with a 30 mm pump.
Always use original oil pressure springs and pistons. Never use oil pressure booster kits
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Air cooled Engine builder
samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2021, 20:16:04 pm »

Thanks , yes i have standard springs and pistons to go into the engine .
I tried those tuning springs and i got hot oil like crazy. So i only use the stock ones .
The problem with cold starts I don t think it is too much of a problem.
First i only drive it in summer and it is always parked inside. I run a Gene Berg Oil pump cover with pressure bypass .



And i wanna use 15 w 50 , not the 20w 50 like i used in the passed .
I was always with castrol classic but once it is hot , it will stay for the whole day .... it doesnt get rid of the temp.
So i wanna go to the Motul 300v competition in both , the split and my dragster .
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2021, 18:53:20 pm »



Rings are gaped , first ring 0,35 mm
Second ring 0,45 mm and the oil rings where ok out of the box at 0,25



Deck height currently at 2 mm
Chamber volume is 47 ccm
With 90,5 x 78,4 this brings me to 9,4 CR , i aim for 1,5 deck height which brings me to 9,9 .
I think about setting 0,5 mm deck height and putting a copper ring of 1 mm into the head .
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Mike
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Posts: 15


« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2021, 10:28:37 am »

Hi, your build looks good.
Thanks for the technical Information.

I have a question,
Where did you buy the cam bolts from?

Regards
Michael
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 10:45:18 am »

Thank you , I am still learning a lot about these engines , i started this topic mainly to get some advise from the professionals out there.

The bolts are 5/16 UNF 1/2 inch long , I ordered them from a German page called zollshop.de
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Mike
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Posts: 15


« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 11:18:10 am »

Thanks for the quick reply,
Luckily i am German  Smiley
Thank you
Michael
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Mike
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 11:22:06 am »

Do you Loctite or something to secure them? Or any washers ?
Regards
Michael
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Garrick Clark
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Posts: 481


« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 15:13:28 pm »

I use lock tight and no washers. Check bolt head to oil pump clearance.
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Air cooled Engine builder
samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 16:56:32 pm »

I use Loctite and washers . I used the domehead bolts , those give you a lot of gap between the head and the oilpump .
But always check it !


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Mike
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Posts: 15


« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 17:25:08 pm »

Cool!
Spring loaded washers ( is that the proper word?) or regular ones?
Yeah the domehead bolts are great!
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2021, 17:26:53 pm »

I don t know what they are called , but yes , i used those
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Lukej
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2021, 10:54:54 am »

Build looks like a solid start.
I'm with Garrick on the oil though.
My new 2276 is on 5w/40 and I still have 80psi coil oil pressure at idle. And 25 hot.
Will maybe switch to a 0w/40 if I can find one I like.

Spring washers are a bad idea. Just use a dome head screw and loctite. Some kits come.with serrated washers, I had a cam gear come loose with those though, think it chews into the aluminium too much.
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2021, 11:59:28 am »

I don t like those serrated washers at all , the wheel looks like a mess after disassembling it once . On the other hand i always like to have a washer under the head of a bolt.
At the end , I dont think it makes much of a difference with or without a spring washer.
The oil thing I keep in mind , i will have a look at those Oil topics here once more   
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Garrick Clark
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Posts: 481


« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2021, 16:47:04 pm »

I've never used washers. Sounds scary just using bolts doesn't it. Those star washers dig into the wheel. So do spring washers.
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Air cooled Engine builder
Mike
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Posts: 15


« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2021, 18:48:46 pm »

The spring washer that vw used under the rocker hold down nuts are nice.one piece
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2021, 19:21:47 pm »

Sorry , i forgot to mention this , yes the spring washers i used are one piece units.
Not from VW but like S shaped


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Bruce
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Posts: 1402


« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2021, 04:44:54 am »

And i wanna use 15 w 50 , not the 20w 50 like i used in the passed .
I was always with castrol classic but once it is hot , it will stay for the whole day .... it doesnt get rid of the temp.
The reason your engine gets hot is because you're using 50wt oil. The high pressure it causes when it's hot, makes the oil bypass the stock oil cooler.

What is the inside diameter of your engine's bearings?  Are they within VW's specifications?
What is the outside diameter of your crank and rod journals? Are they within VW's specs?  If yes to both, then you need to use an xW-30 oil because the clearances are designed for 30wt oil.

I run a Gene Berg Oil pump cover with pressure bypass .
There is a famous quote from a GM executive: "Parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems."  I have a friend who used the Berg bypass cover on his engine. I'm not sure if it was the second or third time he had to call a ramp truck to get his car taken home because the plunger got stuck in the bypass position, leaving him with no oil pressure, that caused him to take the Berg cover off.  The problem it was supposed to cure, never existed in the first place because he uses an xW-30 oil. Referring back to the quote above, the part he left out, eliminated the service problems.
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samotorsport
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Posts: 240



« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2021, 09:11:24 am »

I know what you mean , things not present can t break down
Yes all dimensions are within VW specs, i am on looking into the oil thing for the moment.
My dragster engine is getting the Motul 15w50 300v competition for sure , but thats a different story .
I thought about maybee using different oils over the year to see how it reacts on pressure and temp .
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Lukej
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Posts: 56


« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2021, 18:28:35 pm »

I know what you mean , things not present can t break down
Yes all dimensions are within VW specs, i am on looking into the oil thing for the moment.
My dragster engine is getting the Motul 15w50 300v competition for sure , but thats a different story .
I thought about maybee using different oils over the year to see how it reacts on pressure and temp .

That is IMO the best idea. See what YOUR engine wants. Bang a 10w/50 in or whatever, and adjust as and when you get a handle on your hot and cold pressure.
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