Small powerhouses and old school

[Jim Ratto]

once you get the small cc engine to produce 85 or 100hp per liter, which may equate to 165 hp or so, what about making the hp work in a Type 1? "Work" meaning having a fast street car from light to light, getting on highway, and also getting down the strip faster than your neighbor?

I think things to consider are gearing to make the engine "work" and to take adavantage of torque multiplication of "closer" gears, since the engine itself is going to give up a wide torque spread. I don't think first and second need to be wall climbers, in fact a slightly taller 1st on a 4.37 r/p might be the trick, to allow the car to get some distance through the rpm.

Unsprung weight is a biggie too. Big heavy wheels and tires are gonna slow a little motor way down. ERCOs are a must I would guess.....

[Johannes Persson]

Hi,
At the moment I am at the PRI show Orlando Florida and will be back in business 11/12.

Regards
Johannes Persson

[Bewitched666]

Mail us some sun overhere in holland Johannes

[Peter Shattock]

From my experience I would say Jim is on the money. As I suggested previously the “combination” of engine, gearbox and car becomes far more important when there is less slack available with the motor. I think I’ve got some decent ratios in the box and have saved weight where I can (within my own constraints) so my interior is more race car than comfy Cal Looker but its drivable to the track and back and has turned a best of 12.44 @ 105mph (without the fan belt and with a stinger and slicks) from a regular 69x90.5 1776.

Winter plans hope to see me going a bit quicker next year but time will tell, as progress has been slow over the years. I remember racing Richie in 2001 (I think), it was my first time out with the car, he ran 12.8ish (his first 12 if I remember) and I ran a 13.0 but here we are 6 years later and he is down to 9.7s and I’m still in the mid 12’s!

It will be interesting to see how people get on with there winter plans and see the numbers from the dyno sessions and more importantly at the track, as the Dyno figures are for the bench racers and mag features, it’s the ET that counts (IMHO).

One thing Jim was wrong about though, the car has gone much quicker with BRM’s than it did with the Erco’s so I’ll be sticking to the mouldy old mags for now!

Just wondered if anyone has had any thoughts on how quickly people have gone with a na 1776 in the past (race and street cars),  I’m sure there has been plenty of quick cars over the years, so if any one can recall a few cars and numbers I would appreciate it.

Happy winter tinkering to you all.

[Peter Shattock]

Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as there are a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! It was also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue might like to take a look and post it up here for the record. If I remember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper people involved.

[ESH]

...Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though...

I heard of a nine second dragster (runs at Englishtown, NJ) which has a naturally aspirated motor of around 1900cc but pulling low nines out of a 1679 is quite something. That said I suspect getting that motor to the shops would be "quite something" too!

[Peter Shattock]

I think it was no nonsense 9.25 or similar so like you say a major achievement, I think the turning circle and the air shifted trans might present a few problems in the supermarket car park as well!

[Peter Shattock]

Just had a quick look at the BugIn 32 DVD, if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does sound great! Actually it sounds really good on tick over as well. You guy's building 1679's have a lot to live up to, but I’m looking forward to hearing some little screamers at EBI2.

[ESH]

... if you have it check out 58 mins and 45 seconds and listen to a 1679 at 11,000 rpm really does sound great...

You need to talk to Mike Ishiko next time round, he has some interesting small motor information. They're retarding the ignition at ten five and then letting it run out some more. Some crazy a$$ stuff and all very clever! 

[Ole]

Here's another mouse-motor:

It's Siegfried Volland's Autocross engine, raced at the European Autocross Championship in the early 80's.



I don't know much about this engine, I was told it's a 1585cc (69x85.5) and that it makes (made) about 160 horses...

It has a Kugelfischer mechanical injection, KRE throttle bodies (IDA-size), Superflow heads, Autocraft rockers and a big dry-sump oil pump.

I hope some day we'll find the time to put it back into service and fire it up again... I can already hear it...

[Jim Ratto]

I think all of us would be very impressed with a 1679cc that made 150hp, wouldn't we? In the right car, driven in anger, that ought to equate to low, low 13's, maybe high 12's. Myself, I wouldn't be so worried about the timeslip...if it scares the hair off of you when you push the go pedal, you've done a good job.
I think a Lounge "Engine of the Year" bit would be cool....hp vs. displacement vs. longevity vs...dare I say it, fuel consumption. Kind of like an index of thermal efficiency.

[K-Roc]

Slightly off target but Brian Hyerstay (not sure about the spelling) runs a 1679 g/dragster into the low nines in the US and is said to produce around 220HP and goes through the lights at 11,000 rpm! Not sure it would be the best engine combination in a street sedan though, but that is a fair dollop of HP from a 1679. Check out the bugin 32 DVD as there are a few runs shown the rail is called superior steel. Needless to say it sounds bonkers! It was also featured in HotVWs in 2000 I think so those who have a back catalogue might like to take a look and post it up here for the record. If I remember rightly there were credits to the Bergs, the Eversons and Mr Klingerman, so there are a lot of proper people involved.

I believe he was running welded 043 Castings, 42 X 37.5 Steve Timms heads at that time,  I will se if I can get him to post some info,
( Wait to you see what he has coming down the pipe.......)  He want's the NHRA record back!

K-Roc,

[Peter Shattock]

Ole, Interesting cooling on that auto cross motor, I wonder how long the races were as the SF's are not the best a keeping the temps down, but it obviously worked and when you consider the motor gets a good hammering for the race duration....... I wonder with the cooling effect of bio fuels if the regular squirrel fans would be good enough to control temps on the street? Anyone fancy being the guinea pig?

Jim makes a good point, in all this high octane talk we should not forget the fun. Its not all about the numbers, a good razz in your street car that’s got a bit of a sting in the tale is all you really need to make the world look a bit brighter! 12's with 150 hp is possible I would say, assuming the box has the right ratios and the car has been on a bit of a diet, not to mention the driver!

K-Roc I've just looked at the Bugin 32 DVD and you're right they are stock looking heads (externally). It would be good to hear from Brian on here as he clearly has his house in order and he must be paving the way with HP for a 1679 flat four. If he is prepared to share some information (especially if he is moving on) I’m sure there will be plenty of people on here who would like to listen to what he has to say.

The way this small engine thing has taken off we could end up with 16 car heads up 1679 field at EBI2, I might even have to sling my big bore 90.5's and step up to some 88's! That said if Brian jumps over the pond and enters I think we're all doomed.

[Peter Shattock]

Just noticed this thread has nearly reached 1679 views, which is quite fitting given the topic!

[Zach Gomulka]

I remember Brians 1679 dragster used custom 5" Carrillo rods... 1.84:1 rod ratio...

[The Ideaman]

Yes, and it had welded VW style heads, too.  If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey.  It had a much bigger motor by the Aragona's.  Taylor Walton talks with Brian on occasion.

[ESH]

...If I remember right, the G/D record got killed by the "Ladybug" dragster from New Jersey.  It had a much bigger motor by the Aragona's...

That's the one I was thinking of, it's a 1914cc engine or something isn't it?

 

[Johannes Persson]

Hello Folke,

About the 56 reply,

The bmep is created from the power,displ and rpm of an engine.
Today there are many dynoed hi-performance VW engines out there, by using thier numbers in my formula will show you what is a realistic bmep to use.
That is the reason why I "picked" 12,5.

To John Maher & K-Rock.

Thanks for good input.

The best way to determine where VE drops off is to use the 0,55 mach index calculation, as K-Roc mentioned.

It is a little bit more "tricky" than using my formula above because you have to know the efficiency of the port(flow/m2 vs crank degree).

This must be done because you can have two ports with the same area but with different flow numbers, the one with the higher flow will reach 0,55 mach at higher rpm.


I can strongly recomend the PRI show, it has been three days of HARDCORE racing.

BTW I recived my JE "mouse motor" pistons today I will post some pictures later.


Regards
Johannes

[n2o]

"thinking out of the box" the answer  is INDEED the key to succes 

Regards Steve

To get more than 100hp/litre you dosent need to think outside the box, you just have to think... :-)

Of the shelf parts and ideas will get us close with some common sence...

thx
Roar

[1946vw]

The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian

[Lee.C]

The good news is that all three of my 1679cc engines will be for sale soon. 220hp times 3 Brian

I'M INTERESTED FOR SURE 

[Peter Shattock]

I think I'll join the queue as well. I might be interested in you air shift trany as well if you are changing wholesale, or if not if you're prepared to share some info.......... as the shifts sound amazing on the Bugin 32 DVD, I seam to remember it was based on a To#¤ta 5 speed from the Hot VW's feature and it certainly sounded like a 5 speed on the DVD, nice idea I thought with the small cube motor.

Peter

[Zach Gomulka]

I thought it was a Liberty trans?

[1946vw]

It is a liberty trans just like a V8 pro stock car has. The engines will be for sale after the first of the year they come with Dyno sheets or come here and see them make power for your self. I have a dyno at the house.
Thanks Brian

[Johannes Persson]

Hi,

"Santa" came early this year.

Now I have all the parts for the "Mouse motor", I have also done most of the machining to the case like line boring,shuffle pins,extra oil grove in the lifter bores etc.....  .
The crank assembly will be balanced after christmas, then the short block is the next step.
The biggest challenge is of course the heads, the flow potential of the intake port has to be in the range of 190cfm at 25"H2O, that could be hard from a 40mm valve at 15,5mm(.613)lift.

Pictures will soon be post.

Merry Christmas
          &
Happy New Year

Johannes Persson

[Jon]

Pic from Johannes:

[benssp]

Can't wait to see the results, that flywheel is a piece of art! 

[Jon]

More pics:

[Jon]

And more:

[Jon]

And more: