I don't know if i'm dumb or unlucky

[Peter]

guys,
i'm struggeling with my rod bolts here..
i have cb h beams with arp 2000s,
but some bolts were stretched too much when torqued
so i bought new ones, and i dont want to make the same mistake like last time,
and start measuring when lightly torqued
so i torque my new bolts to 20 ftlbs, and measure : 0.149 mm or 0.0059 inch stretch;  take it to 25  and measure 0.198 mm!
WTF i think i m going crazy; these are brand new bolts!!
and i think my measurements are consistent, because untorqued, the value stays the same
 

what do you think i should do?

[Neil Davies]

You are using the bolt lube aren't you? I'm no expert by any means but I know that it's important to use the grey ARP lube to stop the rods snagging and giving false readings. Might be worth doing a search on Shop Talk Forums for rod bolt stretch.

[Peter]

Thanks Neil,
i am using the arp lube,everything by the book;
will use a torquewrench from my work today and x-check with mine
maybe my stretch gauge is wrong, but its just a stupid dial gauge..
i will measure the bolts again untorqued today and see if i get the same measurements
i will ask on STF as well
somebody get me out of the deep
 pretty please

[Neil Davies]

Ratto or someone like that should be able to help - you might just have to wait until the guys in the US log on later today!

[Peter]

nobody that can help me?
pretty pretty please?

[Peter]

Guess not..
thanks anyway Neil

[n2o]

I have heard several people claiming the same problem....could it be that the lube is to good? I'll never use it.

Try with engineoil, or locktite as a lube. Follow the stretchreadings, not the tourqewrench.

If the lube is to good, you will strech to much, before reading the "right" tourqe on your wrench.

Roar

[Udo]

nobody that can help me?
pretty pretty please?

I had a set of CB rods from a customer and they only had 3 steps of torque , 20 , 25 , 29 i think it was . No stretch recommended . ARP 200 bolts

Udo

[Peter]

thanks guys,

so what did you do udo?
just torqued them? i have the same numbers
after watching aj simms movie about stretching i got worried,
in the beginning i thought just torquing them was ok,
but if the torque wrench  is not so accurate i could overtorque them and be fucked..
i want to be sure ,
i ll take another wrench from work today and see what will happen...

thanks again

[Udo]

What else will you do ? You must have a good wrench that is shure . But 29 is not much torque , so i think you can not do something wrong , except you have a bad wrench !!
Carrillos get much more and on these you can easy overstretch the bolts if your wrench does not work right .

Udo

[richie]

I have heard several people claiming the same problem....could it be that the lube is to good? I'll never use it.

Try with engineoil, or locktite as a lube. Follow the stretchreadings, not the tourqewrench.

If the lube is to good, you will strech to much, before reading the "right" tourqe on your wrench.

Roar

OK,i spoke to a rod manufactuer about this yesterday,when they hone them to size they are TORQUED[with the supplied lube],they dont measure stretch and they recomend doing the same.Just make sure you torque wrench is accurate

cheers richie,uk

[Peter]

WTF is A.J. then talking about?

[richie]

WTF is A.J. then talking about?

Hey,I am just the messenger  
what brand rods do you have? and what does it say on the top of the bolt?

cheers richie

[Peter]

cb h beams,
arp 2000
but why does arp stress so much that you can NOT exceed 0.0056 " ?

sorry if i sounded harch..no disrespect

[Jon]

Nice little jig you have there, I might make one of those.
Personally I use the stretch method, as it gives me more comfort. I also try to arrive at the correct stretch in one "go".

[n2o]

The last engine I serviced (for a customer), had also 2 bolts "overstretched" (arp 2000). To be safe I changed them...to sps 5/16 from carillo.

The bolts from carillo need twice as much force, to reach the specified stretch compare to the arp 2000 bolts. (To me, this say something about the difference in metalurgy)

[Peter]

hey guys,
well if it would give me comfort also,
i think if i would only use torque, i would keep on second guessing if i did a good job

[n2o]

I have heard several people claiming the same problem....could it be that the lube is to good? I'll never use it.

Try with engineoil, or locktite as a lube. Follow the stretchreadings, not the tourqewrench.

If the lube is to good, you will strech to much, before reading the "right" tourqe on your wrench.

Roar

OK,i spoke to a rod manufactuer about this yesterday,when they hone them to size they are TORQUED[with the supplied lube],they dont measure stretch and they recomend doing the same.Just make sure you torque wrench is accurate

cheers richie,uk

To get the rods honed to size, there is no need for correct strecth in the bolts, you just need the parts to stick together. But when you are free rewing past 8000rpm, (powershifting, burnouts etc) I would not trust any tourqe wrench...

Regards
Roar

[Peter]

thats what i thought as well 

[Frallan]

The last engine I serviced (for a customer), had also 2 bolts "overstretched" (arp 2000). To be safe I changed them...to sps 5/16 from carillo.

The bolts from carillo need twice as much force, to reach the specified stretch compare to the arp 2000 bolts. (To me, this say something about the difference in metalurgy)

Hi N2O
Then you follow my routines.
In the engines were I have run H beam non Carillos like Bugpack, I have paid the same or more for a set of Carillo bolts as the set of rods.
42 or  was it 47 dollars in august when I bought my last set. That is per piece. It is tough.

[Peter]

well, i still have 5 new bolts to go that i didnt check yet, so there is still hope...
i ll try with the facom from my work today and see what happens..

[n2o]

The last engine I serviced (for a customer), had also 2 bolts "overstretched" (arp 2000). To be safe I changed them...to sps 5/16 from carillo.

The bolts from carillo need twice as much force, to reach the specified stretch compare to the arp 2000 bolts. (To me, this say something about the difference in metalurgy)

Hi N2O
Then you follow my routines.
In the engines were I have run H beam non Carillos like Bugpack, I have paid the same or more for a set of Carillo bolts as the set of rods.
42 or  was it 47 dollars in august when I bought my last set. That is per piece. It is tough.

Yes, they are expencive (I paid 40 usd pr bolt), but the quality is priceless and the good feeling after you have put everything together, makes you forget about the price.

[Peter]

Hi guys,
i know its getting boring,
but i have more bad news,
tried all of the bolts and guess what i found:
at only 25 lbft the new bolts stretched 0.2 mm or 0.0078 "
these bolts are far worse than the ones i had originally
these are new fucking bols, i am going insane!
to get correct stretch i think i would need to torque them with 10 lbft
torque wrenches are ok, or they both suck!
1 pic is before torquing, other one is torqued at 25
i dont know what to do anymore
get drunk is all i can do now

[Peter]

so guys,
where can i buy the carillo bolts?
thanks for the help!

[n2o]

so guys,
where can i buy the carillo bolts?
thanks for the help!

Try locktite as lube, be careful, watch the stretch. Many people reports the same result as you, when using the arp-lube.

If it dosn't work, give carillo a call.

http://www.carrilloind.com/

Thanks
Roar

[richie]

so guys,
where can i buy the carillo bolts?
thanks for the help!

As i asked earlier,what does it say on the end of the bolt,there are fake ARP 2000 bolts out there and this could be the issue?

cheers richie,uk

[Frallan]

Wow!
Fake ARP bolts!!!
The guy selling them should have the same tag on him as Serrano. That is unreal.
Maybe you should contact ARP as an alternative. It is not that ARP bolts are useless. They are used by the entire professional racing industry.

As for Carillo, I only think you can buy SPS CARR bolts from Carillo.
Buy a tube of their lube at the same time.
My last contact was with Scott Greatrake on Carrillo@carrilloind.com.
New 5/16" (thread diameter) are $42.00 each, at least May 2007.
Best of luck in any case. Do not take any short cut´s on this one.

[Peter]

i heard also about those fake ones;
the original bolts say arp2000 -04 , and the new say arp2000 -03
what loctite do i have to use then,
i ll try this first
isnt it strange that the arp lube isnt good for arp bolts?
and i know, our vw parts need checking of everything, but this is going a bit too far..
i guess if your not a builder, and just an individual buyer you get the leftovers that were sent back by the pro's

anyway thanks for all your input, i m feeling a bit better now..
allthough ... BIG hangover from last night 

[John Maher]

i heard also about those fake ones;
the original bolts say arp2000 -04 , and the new say arp2000 -03
what loctite do i have to use then,
i ll try this first
isnt it strange that the arp lube isnt good for arp bolts?
and i know, our vw parts need checking of everything, but this is going a bit too far..
i guess if your not a builder, and just an individual buyer you get the leftovers that were sent back by the pro's

They ARE genuine ARP 2000!! They are NOT copies.
Neither are they "leftovers".   

I don't have an explanation for the results you are seeing. All I can say is I've personally used ARP 2000 bolts from the same batch on several engine builds and haven't had a single problem. No problems reported by my other ARP 2000 customers either.

[Peter]

Hi John,
sorry to make you angry,
i m not saying they are leftovers, but i know it can happen,
sorry if i said it in a wrong way.. thats my fault
be you also said i was the first one to measure the stretch,
i just want to be safe then sorry, if arp says its so important to check the , i will do it
afterwards, nobody can say "aah, but your torque wrench is faulty " if something breaks
i am gonna ask if a pro wants to do the measurements again, allthough i cant see what i could have done wrong
but you gotta agree its strange that they all stretch much more beyond the limit..
i checked again with the some original bolts i have and there i got good stretch
i am not blaiming anyone, i am just getting frustrated
please understand
you can bet that i hope that i m doing something wrong, and it just me.. but we ll see